Hmm, you are right; uncharacteristically disappointing.
Joel Send a noteboard - 22/09/2012 12:16:51 AM
I realize an incredible amount of ink has been wasted by Jewish scholars desperate to prove that the Masoretic text is the perfect expression of the text as it appeared in the Second Temple Period, as though they were wedded to it the way a Muslim is to the Qur'an. Entire books have been written on why the second day of Creation is not blessed and the third day is blessed twice.
However, the Septuagint was certainly translated by knowledgeable scholars of the Second Temple Period. Whether there were 70, and whether they did it in 70 days, is up for speculation, but there is rarely smoke without fire, and it is likely that a group of Hebrew scholars produced it using the best texts available. Some of the Qumran fragments support Septuagint variants on the Masoretic text.
The fact remains that the Septuagint predates any Masoretic text in existence. At a minimum, we know the vowel values there are closer to the vowel values used in the Bible as the Masoretic pointing is even later than the New Testament. The Masoretic Text seems to compare with the Vulgate, but that's about 700 years later and after the Destruction of the Temple, the sacking of Jerusalem, and centuries of the diaspora.
However, the Septuagint was certainly translated by knowledgeable scholars of the Second Temple Period. Whether there were 70, and whether they did it in 70 days, is up for speculation, but there is rarely smoke without fire, and it is likely that a group of Hebrew scholars produced it using the best texts available. Some of the Qumran fragments support Septuagint variants on the Masoretic text.
The fact remains that the Septuagint predates any Masoretic text in existence. At a minimum, we know the vowel values there are closer to the vowel values used in the Bible as the Masoretic pointing is even later than the New Testament. The Masoretic Text seems to compare with the Vulgate, but that's about 700 years later and after the Destruction of the Temple, the sacking of Jerusalem, and centuries of the diaspora.
I have no complaints against the Septuagint; quite the opposite. It was one of several key consequences of Hellenization that set the stage for Christianity by making Judaism accessible to Gentiles. Had Christ not been born when He was, another religion of global scope would likely have spread throughout the Roman Empire (indeed, Gnosticism made a strenuous effort to do so anyway. )
Imagine how much more difficult Pauls missionary work would have been without a Greek text of the Tanakh ready to hand. Yet to hear Josephus tell it the Septuagint would never have existed if Alexander had not been so impressed with Daniels prophecy of him that he sent thousands of Jerusalem Jews to Alexandria to administrate his empire. That, and Christianity itself, is why I have a hard time accepting the prevalent view of the Book of Daniel as a Second Century BC pseudepigrah, but perhaps that is a topic for another thread.
As a result, I prefer the Septuagint reading of any passage when there is a conflict, and I think that the passage only actually makes any sense whatsoever when the word "judgment" is added. There is no Judgment upon Christ, and by extension, in Christ we are forgiven so that we are spared Judgment on our merits, by which standard we would almost certainly be damned.
Well, without "judgement" it could simply mean Daniel prophesied the Messiah would suffer complete ignominy, degradation and deprivation in death. However, that would be difficult to reconcile with Judaisms view of Messiah, though it would well summarize Christs Passion. Your interpretation with "judgement" is every bit as logical, and more so for Jewish scholars. It certainly makes sense in the context of unmerited Grace and the vicarious sacrifice, yes.
Speaking of Grace, while there is much to be said for the common heritage comparative religion reveals, differences are often just as critical, and Christianity is, to my knowledge, unique in positing man as fallen rather than inherently good. Personally, I find Grace far more fair than various "balance scale" views of judgement condemning the 51% evil and exalting the 51% good. We could have a whole thread on that, too (I believe I even tried once back at wotmania.) It is hard to place any faith or respect in deities who prompt questions like "how many orphanages must I endow to earn a free rape?" Perfection is Boolean, so a perfect deity can no more remain perfect in communion with those who abuse the Take-a-Penny/Leave-a-Penny dish than with mass murderers: Sin is sin, and does not come in grades.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So, about this silly "Jesus' wife" story making the rounds...
19/09/2012 10:55:55 PM
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That's right! Jesus' position on marriage was "One man, no woman." *NM*
19/09/2012 11:05:55 PM
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What is the context? The canonical bible says Christ has a wife: The Church.
19/09/2012 11:25:19 PM
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Oh please...don't confuse "wife" with "bride"
19/09/2012 11:35:09 PM
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What word do the Prophets use for Israels relationship to God?
20/09/2012 12:38:20 AM
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BRIDE
20/09/2012 03:39:30 PM
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I love your last two sentences. They're a really nice description. *NM*
20/09/2012 07:58:19 PM
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That makes sense for an eternal God, but sounds like a wife who remains a bride.
20/09/2012 08:56:07 PM
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It's "bride" in the Old Testament as well.
20/09/2012 09:48:37 PM
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The distinction is important for preserving the newlywed condition, but not for this fragment.
20/09/2012 11:21:52 PM
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Two things why it is important
20/09/2012 04:24:37 AM
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Did someone hit you over the head? "Two things why it is important"? Really?
20/09/2012 03:50:02 PM
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Something I forgot to ask you about last night: What is your take on Daniels messianic prophecy?
20/09/2012 09:21:32 PM
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I don't get that at all. "And will be no more", or "And will have nothing" is better.
20/09/2012 10:13:20 PM
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It is the King James text, which I have never heard anyone call heretical.
20/09/2012 11:15:54 PM
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The King James Bible is aesthetically pleasing but a bad translation.
21/09/2012 12:03:00 AM
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I like the NKJV because it tries to include all ambiguities.
21/09/2012 12:47:38 AM
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It says nothing about the Septuagint variant reading, though.
21/09/2012 03:35:51 AM
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Hmm, you are right; uncharacteristically disappointing.
22/09/2012 12:16:51 AM
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There is a very good reason no one dismissed the illegitmate gospels as illegitimate until 180 AD:
20/09/2012 09:15:05 PM
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The Gospel of Thomas was written before 180 AD.
20/09/2012 09:33:44 PM
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What is the oldest extant text of or reference to it?
20/09/2012 11:11:03 PM
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The Oxyrhynchus fragments were dated to c. 200 AD, and they are copies
21/09/2012 12:18:33 AM
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I would buy 200 AD, of course.
21/09/2012 12:58:32 AM
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It's not about "buying" it - it's essentially proven at that point.
21/09/2012 03:26:50 AM
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Yes; all I meant was that I never disputed a date around 200 AD.
22/09/2012 12:25:41 AM
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I don't think any of the gospels were written by their purported authors.
22/09/2012 03:36:32 AM
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Not even Mark or Luke?
22/09/2012 01:21:24 PM
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Well, but everyone knew Peter didn't speak Greek
22/09/2012 09:46:57 PM
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True, but everyone also knew Paul spoke it fluently, and he would have been an ideal choice.
24/09/2012 06:20:22 AM
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Some people did "lie big".
24/09/2012 02:11:58 PM
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I forgot about (or possibly repressed memories of) the Gnostics "Gospel" of Peter.
24/09/2012 11:26:43 PM
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I'm not trying to defend Gnosticism doctrinally, but...
24/09/2012 11:51:40 PM
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I am not relying SOLELY (or chiefly) on popularity though.
25/09/2012 02:21:01 AM
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The Gnostic response would be:
25/09/2012 06:01:58 AM
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That just sounds like more conspiracy allegations based on desire rather than evidence.
25/09/2012 07:15:06 AM
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The issue of evidence for Gnosticism would make this thread unnecessarily long.
25/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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What about those who postulate a mid-to-late 1st century composition?
22/09/2012 02:21:18 AM
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Elaine Pagels ceased to be an impartial academic a long time ago.
22/09/2012 03:41:41 AM
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Suspected as much, but wanted to see if you thought so as well
22/09/2012 03:47:05 AM
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Let's not get started on Funk
22/09/2012 09:48:05 PM
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don't these people have anything better to do?
20/09/2012 11:39:35 PM
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Clearly not.
22/09/2012 12:27:29 AM
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