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That much is true, yes. Legolas Send a noteboard - 19/09/2012 07:04:05 PM
I mean, guilty as charged, but charity begins at home. I am not convinced Foxconn employees (or, in the case of local students, forced workers) are "better off than they were four years ago." People with improving lives do not regularly take them, and I doubt parents of kidnapped and enslaved children are any happier without them.

There is a very big gap between developing countries cracking down on that kind of practices - which are illegal even by their own regulations - and developing countries being forced to make their products at the same standards and with the same treatment of workers as in the West, thus denying them their cost advantage that gets them all those jobs.

And if you bother to do any reading at all about China or a myriad of other developing countries, you can hardly be blind to the millions upon millions of people who are exponentially more wealthy than they or their parents were twenty years ago, and the rise of the middle class in countries that for a long time had pretty much only the tiny filthy rich elite and the dirt poor everybody else, like in many countries of Africa.

Back in 2000, the United Nations set their "Millennium Development Goals", a list of goals in a number of categories that developing countries were to achieve - reduce extreme poverty by at least half, make education universal, improve health care, and so on. The deadline is 2015; and a good many countries, including many of the biggest like China and India, are quite on track to get there. One shouldn't be overly optimistic or think that the battle is won, but it's ridiculous to deny that on the whole, the situation of the developing world has improved drastically over the past few decades, and looks set to continue improving; there's a reason why we keep getting all those warnings from concerned ecologists about what will happen if all the people in developing countries start approaching the developed countries in their consumption habits.
Helping them is not my primary goal, no; I may be altruistic, but am no martyr. However, I see little evidence any Third World people benefit save high ranking government officials and owners of contractors (and people.) Just as American consumers do not benefit from paying $2 less on jeans they can no longer afford at any price, since their former employer sent their well paid job to Indonesia. Once again Big Business owners (NEVER small businesses, which are going under at an alarming rate in the US) benefits at the expense of consumers and labor, and after nearly 20 years those last two groups have yet to see any benefit "trickle down."

Nonsense and more nonsense. For the first bit, see above. And for the second, obviously losing your job and not finding a new one will seriously reduce your living standard in the US like anywhere else, but even in the US there is welfare and there are other ways to ensure that the jobless still consume on a certain scale, and hence still profit from the low prices that are permitted by the outsourcing of production, even if obviously the balance is negative in their case. And the unemployed are still few enough that this doesn't come close to making the balance for America as a whole negative.
It was never about improving Third World living standards are lowering Western product costs; that was just clever marketing by people who invented and subsist on clever marketing. It was always about lowering production costs by extorting the repeal of Western consumer, worker and enviromental standards paid for in blood over a century. If we genuinely want to help the Third World we must make importing its products conditional on them being made under the same standards as products produced in the West. Letting Western (not Third World) multinationals exploit Third World populations as they once did ours helps no one but Western Big Business, at the expense of the Third World as well as Western consumers, workers and small business owners.

Lowering production costs substantially will also lower the finished product's cost in any even remotely competitive market, and the free market certainly has increased competition - when American car manufacturing jobs were threatened by the Asian manufacturers offering equally good or better cars at lower prices, the American consumers who didn't happen to work in the auto industry certainly benefited from that. Neither the improvement of Third World living conditions nor the lower prices of goods for Western consumers are matters of debate; you would do well to stop pretending they are, and try building arguments that acknowledge those facts.

And then in that last bit, you're doing it again. Be as Americocentric as you like with regards to defending American jobs, but stop pretending you're doing it for the good of the developing countries. Within reasonable limits, them getting badly-paid jobs at less than perfect working and living conditions is still a far sight better than them not getting any jobs at all, and as you can see all over the world, as developing countries work themselves up out of poverty, wages increase and working conditions improve.
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How would you fix unemployment? - 18/09/2012 05:43:17 PM 771 Views
Kill off every third unemployed person; that'll teach the lazy bastards. *NM* - 18/09/2012 06:11:58 PM 214 Views
And encourage population control! Brilliant! *NM* - 18/09/2012 06:28:34 PM 223 Views
What Greg said about corporate tax rates. - 18/09/2012 07:48:39 PM 616 Views
Workhouses. - 18/09/2012 08:24:04 PM 578 Views
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A reply to a single paragraph should result in a reply back of manageable length... right? - 18/09/2012 11:30:02 PM 516 Views
Good luck with that (sorry Joel, but it is true ) - 18/09/2012 11:36:09 PM 546 Views
I do not think the first and fourth paragraphs of my response to him should count as two paragraphs. - 18/09/2012 11:55:08 PM 611 Views
no, - 19/09/2012 12:03:25 AM 580 Views
Caring MORE about Western living standards=/=caring NOTHING about Third World ones. - 18/09/2012 11:48:54 PM 573 Views
That much is true, yes. - 19/09/2012 07:04:05 PM 575 Views
Wait...is there something wrong about not caring about other countries? - 19/09/2012 03:15:00 AM 519 Views
That is, obviously, a rather subjective question. - 19/09/2012 06:33:41 PM 494 Views
Put a bird on it! *NM* - 18/09/2012 11:02:41 PM 313 Views
Good old fashioned relief works. - 19/09/2012 09:45:19 PM 490 Views
Duct tape. *NM* - 19/09/2012 11:01:10 PM 265 Views
I think you named the root problem quite well... - 25/09/2012 01:12:55 PM 497 Views
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil," - 30/09/2012 10:52:05 AM 617 Views
get rid of unemployment extensions so the lazy people go out and find jobs - 25/09/2012 01:44:23 PM 554 Views

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