Active Users:1070 Time:22/11/2024 10:32:05 AM
Thanks for confirming my general impression as right on the money. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/09/2012 03:35:56 PM
As an aside at the start, you know English well enough to know "organic" may mean "naturally occuring/developing" as well as just "carbon based."

The worst thing is that nobody knows what it means. As Isaac points out, all food is made of organic compounds, as it's all carbon-based. So obviously that's not what's meant. Originally it seemed to mean not genetically modified – this was back when loads of people were banging on about how we shouldn't "play God" with our food. Then it somehow turned into no chemical pesticides. And what if stuff is artificially bulked up by injecting it with water? I assume there must be rules about this kind of thing, but I don't believe there's any public awareness of them. I can't even find a definition on the website of DEFRA, which certifies organic food in the UK.

I honestly think a lot of people who buy organic do so because they think it's more moral in some undefined way, or even just that if it's more expensive it must be better. For all I know there may well be benefits to organic food*, but if so, nobody's told me what they are in a way that makes sense.

*By which I mean food that is labelled as organic in supermarkets, as opposed to any individual's opinion about what constitutes "real" organic food.

I admit I am not 100% sure when GMOs became the norm, but organic food goes back at least as far as the sixties, and seems to have been prompted by Rachel Carson and the side effects of DDT as much as anything else. GMOs just upped the ante because the long term effects are almost impossible to know now, and because they prevent farmers replanting seed, sterilize the next generation of neighboring related plants, crowd out the other plants through natural selection, and kill harmless or even beneficial neighboring organisms through biologically produced pest/herbicides.

Imagine a world where NO foodcrops made seed, because all those that do have been bred, choked or poisoned out of existence. It is already hard enough to get food from anyone but agribusiness multinationals, but if the only seedstock is that they manufacture, virtually every living thing on Earth will be wholly dependent on them. We may need Svalbard, not to rebuild a ruined civilization, but simply ruined agriculture. Organic food did not start with GMOs, but certainly needs to include them wholly apart from local sustainability and economic issues. The rest of the world constantly complains about American farm subsidies keeping food prices so low Third World farmers cannot escape poverty: Where will they be if they must BUY all their seed...?

This is playing God with far more than just our food; playing God with food is but one step on that much longer path.


It definitely goes back to the sixties, and it's definitely linked from the start to pesticides and chemical fertilizers (other early targets were additives to color fruits and veggies - oranges and carrots and so on, and the alimentary waxes and coatings) and also with the growing obsession of consummers with "flawless" and uniform products that made percentage of grown products rejected and thrown away at the source go sky high. Organic displaced as buzzword what was more frequently called "natural food" and "natural" growing methods at some point. For early discussions of organic food (and realize how similar their discourse about it is similar to today's concerns/beliefs), one just has to watch old interviews with hippies. In the 1990s, it simply started becoming mainstream.

There may be some confusion because a lot of people became aware of the "organic" phenomenon only when the debate on GMOs arose, and because there's a continuum and people into organic food were unsurprisingly among the first to worry about GMOs or to militate against them.

There's also a lot of cynicism toward organic food from people who became aware of the phenomenon only once the food industry caught up with it and saw "organic" as an added value they could use to justify higher prices, and started labelling anything and everything as organic and, following mostly lobbying from producers and customers that's when some standards (varying widely from country to country, some of those have governemental standards, others have certification from all kinds of organisms, farmer unions for instance) started to appear, to which the food industry replied by replacing mentions of organic growth by logos, to perpetuate the confusion with the new certification logos (and largely succeeeded).

For sure the original organic phenomenon wasn't about jacking up the prices. On the contrary, the early organic farmers were militant (many of those smaller scale farmers still are, and growing without pesticides has become one issues among many others like proximity to the buyers, GMO-free etc.) and doing all they could to bridge the price gap and become competitive to escape the small and elitist "health food" market, but had tons of problems with that challenge. They started getting a break when more people perceived organic growth as an added value, but as soon as that reached a critical mass, the food industry caught up and found ways to cash on it. That set back the small scale farmers again, though many also started to get creative around the same time, for example uniting as very large scale cooperatives to retain the proximity/organic methods philosophy but be big enough together to stand a chance to compete with the traditional food industry.

Personally, the first time I saw organic veggies/fruits in stores was in the mid-80s (that corresponds to the time I left home to study and started making groceries, however), though I've seen organically grown products not sold under that "label" much earlier than that at farmers markets.

Another thing to keep in mind is that for people of let's say my dad's generation (a few years too old, and much too conservative to be a hippy or listen to much they had to say!) "organic" growth methods were not a "new fad" for home gardening, but rather it's the wide use of pesticides and fertilizers that was a new and in his case short-lived fad - aping the "modern methods" developped for the large scale farming industry. For a few years in the 70s my dad used chemicals in the home garden before returning to the traditional methods his dad had used, and stick to heirloom seeds (for many years just out of annoyance of the sterility of the hybrids that forced him to buy seeds each year). For him it was far more having observed no significant advantage to using those pricey chemicals over the methods he had seen his dad use (composting, manure, bug nets, bug-repellent companion plants etc.). By the time he started passing his gardening knowledge to me, his methods were the same but his motives to use the "old ways" had evolved quite a bit.

As for the future of "organic", I guess the fad itself will eventually disappear from labelling and such. I know a great deal of farmers who've switched to "virtually organic" methods for all sort of motives (from constraints due to the banning of several chemicals to conviction or concerns etc.) and just don't bother with getting certified as organic producers as they see that as a costly gimmick in itself.

It won't disappear nearly as fast as some think, though, because the food industry has adapted to the phenomenon and found ways to use it. They have a long tradition of cashing in on "food frights" (there's an excellent discussion of this, mostly from the FDA/American angle and from the scientific perspective in Modernist Cuisine, interesting all the more because they don't find the organic phenomenon very convincing on many specifics from the scientific standpoint. It's mostly the FDA they lambast for "promoting pseudo-science" among the American public (and because the FDA is very influential abroad, worlwide) and having their hands virtually tied by the lobbies of the food industry, however.

I think the deciding factor will be the popularity of arguments for buying locally in the interest of economy and sustainability. Of course, within the US it is worth noting those arguments did not prevent the virtual eradication of family farms, or even the "Walmarting of Main Street." Factory farms, just as bulk retailers like Wal$Mart, have a strong advantage in economy of scale. The trick is convincing people they are better off buying from neighbors who return that patronage than from faceless multinationals who send jobs and profits overseas, that saving $0.03/lb. on tomatoes is not cost effective if it costs the buyer their job.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
I'd be interested in knowing what you guys think about organic food - 11/09/2012 08:01:41 PM 1068 Views
Re: I'd be interested in knowing what you guys think about organic food - 11/09/2012 08:55:17 PM 594 Views
Okay - 11/09/2012 10:05:39 PM 553 Views
Re: Okay - 12/09/2012 01:26:20 AM 494 Views
Re: Okay - 12/09/2012 04:25:19 PM 583 Views
Re: I'd be interested in knowing what you guys think about food - 11/09/2012 08:59:54 PM 778 Views
I am intrigued by your ideas. - 12/09/2012 03:20:13 PM 488 Views
I'm a biology graduate so I'm a bit bias but... - 11/09/2012 09:41:00 PM 681 Views
Thank you for you perspective! *NM* - 11/09/2012 10:14:49 PM 271 Views
I think organic food is a luxury that few will want as food prices increase in the coming decades. - 11/09/2012 10:11:33 PM 570 Views
Re: I think organic food is a luxury that few will want as food prices increase in the coming -- - 11/09/2012 10:35:08 PM 596 Views
Re: I think organic food is a luxury that few will want as food prices increase in the coming -- - 12/09/2012 02:38:24 AM 589 Views
Good points - 12/09/2012 09:28:41 AM 629 Views
Re: Good points - 12/09/2012 02:09:49 PM 552 Views
Yes. - 12/09/2012 10:01:36 AM 531 Views
I like it. - 11/09/2012 11:29:08 PM 634 Views
What I think - 12/09/2012 03:43:29 PM 480 Views
Re: What I think - 12/09/2012 04:26:34 PM 568 Views
Did you just INVITE me to ramble? - 11/09/2012 11:30:01 PM 710 Views
Actually (minor pedants point) - 13/09/2012 08:23:48 PM 602 Views
I hold to the view that most food is organic - 12/09/2012 12:15:27 AM 636 Views
What I think (now in the right spot!) - 12/09/2012 04:02:31 PM 649 Views
I'm so glad you responded. - 12/09/2012 04:14:31 PM 613 Views
Well... - 12/09/2012 08:15:13 PM 664 Views
I think the organic movement is mostly a big scam: an excuse to charge more money for less food. - 12/09/2012 11:40:40 PM 522 Views
Actually, I believe the "no pesticides" part predates the "no GMOs" part. - 13/09/2012 05:26:53 AM 534 Views
You're right... - 13/09/2012 08:43:52 AM 624 Views
Thanks for confirming my general impression as right on the money. - 14/09/2012 03:35:56 PM 620 Views
Re: Thanks for confirming my general impression as right on the money. - 16/09/2012 07:45:25 PM 587 Views
That is a very interesting overview, thanks. - 17/09/2012 11:22:38 PM 560 Views
Re: That is a very interesting overview, thanks. - 20/09/2012 08:44:45 PM 591 Views
Re: That is a very interesting overview, thanks. - 24/09/2012 03:06:35 AM 598 Views
Curious as to where you read these things - 13/09/2012 08:41:43 PM 576 Views
I am aware of no corroborating scientific research, no - 14/09/2012 03:53:42 PM 601 Views
I have some serious problems with that I'm afraid. - 14/09/2012 05:53:39 PM 491 Views
Fair enough; I have some serious fears with GMOs. - 15/09/2012 03:58:13 AM 651 Views
This is a long one... - 15/09/2012 08:28:36 PM 572 Views
Tends to happen around me for SOME reason.... - 17/09/2012 05:31:44 PM 682 Views

Reply to Message