Active Users:1152 Time:23/11/2024 12:37:48 AM
I recently read Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers, about a regiment from the 101st in WW2. Legolas Send a noteboard - 04/09/2012 10:29:01 PM
There is a critical difference between Iraq or Afghanistan and Vietnam: South Vietnam was a sovereign state, not a conquered one. The kind of martial law applied in the former Axis states, "Total Occupation," if you like, would have been impractical in South Vietnam unless we wanted to turn the whole country into Vietcong (though the South Vietnam was adept at doing that unassisted,) and nominally illegal. With the manpower to put soldiers on literally every street corner AND justification to regard every resident as hostile until proven otherwise Iraq, Afghanistan and South Vietnam could be treated just like the conquered Axis powers.

It's an interesting book in general, but sounds like you need to read it among other reasons (the story of the rampage of the 101st in Berchtesgaden is capital) to make clear the vast difference between the occupied German population right after WW2 (or even during the last stages of the war), and the Iraqi and Afghani populations after the wars there. According to Ambrose, the soldiers he's writing about ranked the German civilians as their second favourite nationality to interact with, behind the enthusiastically welcoming Dutch but ahead of the British, French and Belgians - the comfortable German homes that reminded them of their American homes didn't hurt, but they liked the people too.

Some of the large German cities had taken horrific damage, yes, but millions of Germans in smaller cities or out in rural areas, or even in larger cities that got lucky, survived WW2 with really quite limited discomfort - better off than many in the countries they had conquered, for sure. Their society, their institutions, their economic fundamentals - all intact to a considerable degree, and when they weren't, the memories of how it used to work were not so remote that they couldn't rebuild them easily enough, as soon as they found the money for it - which came slowly, and then faster with the Marshall plan. Prior to the Nazi coup d'etat, they had been a democracy, of sorts at least, and that was only 12 years before - not that hard to reinstate it.

And then of course it should be pointed out that they had very little in the way of sectarian or inter-ethnic strife or tension, since those members of the only meaningful minority in pre-war Germany who hadn't fled had mostly been exterminated. The only vaguely related problem they had was the large amount of displaced Germans from Silesia who needed to be resettled in the rest of Germany.
At least until the revelations of German concentration camps (Japans remain largely ignored even now,) Axis populations felt no more culpability for war than Afghans do. Hitler and Goebbels spent over a decade convincing Germans military expansion was just, and that the only "war guilt" lay with German politicians who "betrayed" the nation in the Great War. Despite many pronouncements, Japan has STILL accepted little responsibility for causing WWII, only regret for doing awful things in a stressful time (similar to Anders Breiviks unapologetic apology/rationalization, and no more convincing.) Convincing defeated Axis populations responsibility took years of intense Allied efforts probably unnecessary in Afghanistan and Iraq, whose people are keenly aware of the brutality and militance of their erstwhile leaders.

One does wonder why Afghans or Iraqis should feel culpability for wars they didn't start themselves... anyway, though, you could indeed make an argument that it took some time before the Germans really started feeling guilty for the war, and if not for the Holocaust they probably never would have. In my view it was much more about them coming out of the war with much of their civil society and their economic fabric intact, and knowing where to go and what to do. Afghanistan and Iraq post-war were in situations they'd never been in before, with not much in the way of institutions either political or economic to build on, and with enormous sectarian or tribal problems.

I think you probably would agree with that last bit - the part where you're kidding yourself is the part where you seem to think you've done nation-building and mass indoctrination before, in Germany and Japan. You really haven't, nothing like the kind of thing that would be needed in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Reply to message
Biden claims Romney wants war with Syria and Iran. - 02/09/2012 10:48:24 PM 859 Views
Biden should be busy preparing to debate Ryan so he is not shredded, instead of saying stupid things - 02/09/2012 11:52:35 PM 535 Views
+1 - Biden is going to get destroyed by Ryan..... - 03/09/2012 02:23:49 AM 347 Views
I try not to think about it. - 03/09/2012 02:47:33 AM 555 Views
We should introduce a new military doctrine - 03/09/2012 02:46:33 AM 423 Views
I still think the post-war Axis powers the best model, but that requires equivalent manpower. - 03/09/2012 03:57:12 AM 460 Views
It's a terrible model. - 03/09/2012 11:42:36 PM 343 Views
Re: It's a terrible model. - 04/09/2012 04:09:21 AM 531 Views
I recently read Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers, about a regiment from the 101st in WW2. - 04/09/2012 10:29:01 PM 486 Views
wars they didn't start themselves? how do you figure that? - 04/09/2012 10:45:07 PM 410 Views
I said start. I quite agree with you about the things that went on after the wars themselves ended. - 05/09/2012 08:51:58 PM 491 Views
shooting at our aircraft is none hostile? - 05/09/2012 10:06:07 PM 432 Views
Eh. It's not the beginning of a war, no. - 05/09/2012 10:31:52 PM 449 Views
An act of war is almost by definition the beginning of a war. - 23/09/2012 04:58:25 AM 438 Views
It is very difficult to reconcile this post with Toms. - 04/09/2012 11:50:06 PM 387 Views
Yes, I noticed that. - 05/09/2012 09:27:14 PM 429 Views
Apparently I only THOUGHT I responded to this post (sorry.) - 23/09/2012 04:30:47 AM 442 Views
Thanks Tom, Joel, and Legolas. *NM* - 03/09/2012 03:56:56 PM 132 Views
I don't think Romney is that interested in starting a war with anyone - 04/09/2012 02:39:14 PM 456 Views
Re: Biden claims Romney wants war with Syria and Iran. - 05/09/2012 04:22:51 AM 424 Views

Reply to Message