In my original reply there's a brief bit of me discussing the US averaging 2 or 3 a year and how that compared up with other countries with smaller population like Norway, and then general stream of crime per capita, but that was the only list I could find... I did encounter your Rampage Killings list when try to relocate the one I'd quoted but it does not paste properly into Excel and individually counting them all and comparing wasn't something I was in the mood for. You'll also note the list of citations is thin and doesn't include - that I saw - any citation of some formal table or research. It may or may not be accurate, but I'm choosing to assume that the list is light on all fronts, and thus is missing non-US incidents as well, and proportionally. The list you attached is 'Americas' so it's hard to compare to Europe, but I will note that the 'Americas' list was 116 entries and Europe's was 99, and that the Americas have 900 million people in them. True, most of the rampages listed are in the US but I'd distrust data from almost anywhere south of the Rio Grande much as I would East of Berlin. My personal guess is the US does have more of these, but I think it's within some single to double digit percentage rather than some order of magnitude thing like 10x.
2 or 3 per year does seem more likely, both based on my personal impression and on the numbers that quick Wikipedia search yielded.
That's been the general 'rule of thumb' since 'going postal' stopped referring to means of shipping. I generally view it as about 1 mass attack per million people per lifetime, less but close enough conceptually, e.g. lower than your odds of being struck by lightning, which hits abut 400 people a year in the US and kills about 40 of them.
And yeah, people's general perception is warped by the simple fact of the US having so many more inhabitants - many European countries have just one notable mass shooting in recent history, or none, but then they may only have 5% of the American population or less. There's also a perception that the shootings, particularly those in schools, are "imported" from the US, fall-out from Columbine and all, which I suppose further distorts the impression about the numbers. Of course, tons of things are "imported" from the US to Europe that way, and it's only the bad ones that are generally acknowledged as such, as one might expect. Your guess sounds plausible enough to me.
Well pointing the finger at other countries or cultures is a very common practice, so too is examining at other countries successes to point fingers at an incumbent. That comparisons beyond the most broad strokes is an exercise in absurdity never matters. The idea that the US might be exporting gun violence is hardly surprising but sounds like cheap political theater to me. I'd hardly be surprised if prior incidents caused copy cats or inspiration but blaming the US for that would seems as logical as blaming Japan if someone nerve-gassed a bus, or dropped a nuke on a city for that matter.
As Nate pointed out, the non-spree murders would be a better point to focus on - the US having a homicide rate of multiple times that of most European countries, much of it with guns. But whether tighter gun control would appreciably bring down that homicide rate, is obviously a different question. You could avoid certain categories of homicides, I do think, like that shooting in Florida earlier this year - take the gun out of the equation and nobody dies there. Some other categories, not so much, and as pro-gun folks keep pointing out, a gun in the hands of the right person can occasionally save lives as well.
The problem with Nate's suggestion is that we rack up more murders every day than these spree killers do that day, most of the time they don't even account for half that day's murders. When we move outside of these rampage/spree types though the focus on assault rifles becomes fairly redundant. Pistols, knives, etc become just as if not more effective from a practical standpoint. 'Intentional Homicide' begin what I'd view as the real matter of note, in that vein, and the US has a current one of 4.7, as incidents per 100,000 people. On that measurement we fall into the lower-middle category, of 2-5, as opposed to the general six categories, less than 1, 1-2, 5-10, 10-20, and 20+, and they don't even try to keep data on almost all of Africa or some of the more obvious places. Here's the chart I'm citing and a color map More than half of Latin America is in the 20+ zone and almost all the remainder in the 2nd, 10-20, category. I don't accept the habit of tending to act as though Western Europe and the US are the lone bastions of wealth and civilization implied when people handwave away all those areas as somehow not counting. It doesn't explain why some countries like the Bahamas, which reasonably parallel European and American GDP/cap, have higher murder rates than the US while Poland, with a lower GDP/cap then the Bahamas, has a lower murder rate on par or lower than much of Western Europe.
I think, as a whole, and going back to what's talked of above, we tend to come up against trends where you can see patterns but always with an outlier or two, and people pick the outlier to discard to fit their preexisting narrative, but in a sample that includes around a hundred 'entities', examining a specific sample of ten or twelve nations where you've discarded on or two really makes comparisons a mostly futile game, though regrettably a very necessary one since not only will people do it anyway but because we really do need to keep our tabs on fellow countries or regions or metro areas to see what is and isn't working and if it might be adapted locally. A total ban on assault rifles could, conceivably, lower these spree killings but a total absence of them wouldn't even drop the US homicide rate by a single percentage point. We just don't have 140 or so of these deaths a year but we do have around 14,000 intentional homicides, and while many do involve guns, few really hinge on powerful ones and most don't even hinge on a gun themself. It's like suicide, you don't need a gun, and very few won't occur from an absence. Now individual murders of the mugging sort? Quite probably but almost all muggers are repeat offenders not allowed to buy guns or get conceal carry anyway.
Well, repeating stuff you already know I'm sure by now, my pardon. I just don't see a spree killing as a logical diving board for any debate that doesn't hinge specifically around things that would have had a realistic probability of preventing that specific incident. And I think people are using it that way
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Do you have strong feelings/opinions about gun control?
25/07/2012 05:48:56 AM
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Kind of?
25/07/2012 05:59:39 AM
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Agreed
25/07/2012 06:20:44 AM
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Re: Agreed
25/07/2012 06:29:16 AM
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A lot of people are uncomfortable about homsexuality. Let's ban that too.
25/07/2012 09:26:46 PM
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I'm pro-guns, but I don't think I have strong feelings about anything
25/07/2012 07:36:31 AM
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Pretty strong (as someone born, raised and living outside the US)
25/07/2012 11:23:52 AM
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Inevitable thread, but mostly I feel people enters this debate without knowing enough about guns
25/07/2012 02:05:12 PM
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I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
25/07/2012 02:47:05 PM
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Re: I have to admit that I didn't read most of that, sorry.
25/07/2012 03:00:07 PM
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Re:
25/07/2012 03:30:44 PM
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My dad's gun were stolen and the police said they didn't need to even take fingerprints
25/07/2012 06:58:36 PM
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I understand, but you probably should if time permits
25/07/2012 03:49:49 PM
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It is unlikely to, for a while.
25/07/2012 10:37:30 PM
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Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though
26/07/2012 01:10:50 AM
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... his was shorter?
26/07/2012 02:41:48 PM
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Yeah but mine had diagrams!
26/07/2012 03:46:49 PM
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I do sometimes need pictures.
26/07/2012 04:55:17 PM
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Where exactly did you get those numbers?
27/07/2012 07:23:31 PM
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Wikipedia, the unchallenged source for acurate and complete citation
27/07/2012 08:19:40 PM
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Sorry, I totally forgot about this post, hadn't noticed your replies.
31/07/2012 07:42:43 PM
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I'm not surprised there were missing incidents
31/07/2012 08:18:04 PM
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Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents
31/07/2012 09:14:34 PM
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Re: I'm not surprised there were missing incidents
31/07/2012 11:56:05 PM
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Norway? Scotland?
25/07/2012 09:31:49 PM
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And yet, the people who do these things tend to be more respectful of guns
25/07/2012 03:44:31 PM
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Well working with dangeorus items tends to lead to respect and caution or a Darwin Award
25/07/2012 04:52:13 PM
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I have no problem with guns, but I agree that assault weapons shouldn't be legal for ordinary people
25/07/2012 02:56:38 PM
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Re: guns
25/07/2012 03:07:30 PM
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what is the basis for your argument that people would have panicked and forgotten their guns?
25/07/2012 04:45:46 PM
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My basis is that people are people - subject to panic, confusion, and fear. *NM*
25/07/2012 05:46:58 PM
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Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
25/07/2012 06:14:57 PM
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Re: Most people who regularly carry weapons reach for them when spooked, in my experience
25/07/2012 06:45:02 PM
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Putting your hand on something is a little different then shooting someone
25/07/2012 08:13:59 PM
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The problem with banning assualt weapons is the defention is mostly cosmetic
25/07/2012 05:29:35 PM
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Bullshit
26/07/2012 01:52:59 PM
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I call Bullshit on your Bullshit
26/07/2012 02:59:09 PM
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Or
26/07/2012 03:20:12 PM
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There a lot of us with military training and some were in that theater
26/07/2012 03:43:52 PM
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HE was talking about normal people.
26/07/2012 04:53:16 PM
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i have pretty strong feelings that they should be better regulated than they currently are
25/07/2012 03:18:10 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong....
25/07/2012 03:53:07 PM
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I believe it was the ammunition he bought in large amounts online, not the guns themselves.
25/07/2012 07:22:31 PM
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Yes and I am glad it's not my problem.
25/07/2012 06:41:56 PM
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Well, you're missing the flaw in your reasoning...probably because you're appallingly ignorant
25/07/2012 09:19:18 PM
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Come back when you can discuss something without attacking someone.
26/07/2012 12:58:47 AM
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Dude, your burglary argument makes no sense
25/07/2012 11:09:37 PM
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They don't bring guns here. Huh. *NM*
26/07/2012 12:59:15 AM
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they don't typically bring guns here either
26/07/2012 02:01:14 AM
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That's how I understand it too but I'm dubious, many criminals are dumber than a bag of hammers
26/07/2012 02:22:18 AM
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Like I've always said, you can't un-invent the gun
25/07/2012 11:05:22 PM
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the argument of if America should have a lot guns is a long over
26/07/2012 03:29:50 PM
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See, there's another one of those BS stats tricks, 'family members' includes suicides and murder
26/07/2012 06:47:54 PM
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Sure, but you can legislate certain excessive firearms.
26/07/2012 09:41:12 PM
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assault rifles are banned
26/07/2012 10:51:28 PM
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I know the distinction. That's why I want a more clearly defined term for "assault weapon."
27/07/2012 09:46:11 AM
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Then stay away from the hyperbole because an Uzi is a sub machinegun so it is banned
27/07/2012 01:48:50 PM
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