Active Users:1222 Time:23/11/2024 04:33:10 AM
Oh, but you have time to read Cannoli though - Edit 1

Before modification by Isaac at 26/07/2012 02:24:26 AM

Maybe I should start talking about how much I hate Egwene, get some proper and diligent reading and get quoted.

Makes me wonder where Joel's at, he always reads my pieces... though admittedly I sometimes wish he didn't...

but, if I get it, you're saying that banning guns won't work well because people with some money and time can just make them anyway? I'm asking, just to make sure I got enough to understand. And if that's correct, why aren't people in other countries making them up and going on shooting sprees?

That is regrettably the short form, the one everyone uses for either for support or to point at. Lacking the specifics your question makes total sense. But the answer is easy... you don't make a shovel when you can buy one, and people in other countries do go on shooting sprees, like that Breivik fellow. One shooting spree versus maybe two a year here, but we outnumber Norway 60:1, hence one incident in thirty years equates to two a year here.... except we haven't had two or three a year, we've had less than one a year, 20 in 30 years, a frequency of 1 per 1.5 years or 1 per 50 year per 10 million people. Sweden, population about 10 million, had one 18 years ago, thus has a higher rate of spree killing than the US, France, population a quarter of ours, has had 3 in the last 20 years, the equivalent of the US having 18 spree killing in 30 years, 90% of ours. The UK had 5 in about 25 years. The Netherlands had one last year. Many countries we have no data on, or unreliable data, but what we can see of US-parallel culture and wealth with gun controls laws is no significant increase or decrease in spree killings. Since the Uiryeong massacre of 1982, 57 dead in S. Korea by a disgruntled cop (kinda hard to keep weapons from them) you've had 20 shooting sprees in the US, and 18 in Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, and the United Kingdom... same time, nearly the same population, not sure who has more total there. People play games with the data, both sides, you can cherry pick total deaths or by weapon or etc and have gun laws helping or show the opposite, but the data seems to come up as roughly even. Craziness occurs everywhere and black markets or legal stores make it easier to acquire than home manufacture. Same as LSD or meth, you can make them, easier to buy them, but if you really want one, you will get one.

That is actually interesting to read, thank you.


You are welcome

I don't do the "guns are evil" thing, but I do know they can kill a heck of a lot better than knives or sticks. If I hear "guns don't kill people blahblah" one more time, I'll scream. Yes, you're right, because that's all we're saying. Of course. ARRRGH! (not aiming this at you, clearly, just being annoyed in general)

But I never said that, and not to be picky, but you didn't read my post, which again had to do with auto/semi weapons and ammunition capacity. Guns don't kill people, people kill people and guns are very good ways of aiding in that task. People repeat these phrases till they lose all meaning, I agree, but it's a true statement. It is the insane or criminal mind that commits murder, and their effectiveness will be based on luck, planning, resources, and determination. Remove or limit any leg of that table and you hinder the ability to kill. But we can't do anything about luck, or planning, or determination. But we want to stop killings, so we look at resources, because it's the only one we can touch. Unfortunately some of the means for doing that which seem logical - like banning high capacity mags - really aren't. I oppose virtually gun restrictions but if people want them, they should pick ones that achieve maximum effect with minimum restriction of freedom.

I know you never said that (I did skim), which is why I pointed out that I was not addressing you with that angst. But, I see that you are now agreeing with it, and I simply do not have any patience for it. It might be factually true, because yes, a gun (generally) has to have been fired by a human hand, but calling it a "resource" when the level of carnage he was going for would have been harder to achieve without guns is at least a little disingenuous. I don't mind if we disagree on this, but I feel pretty strongly about my hate for that phrase. I don't disagree that you have made a point about the effect of different restrictions, etc.


I wouldn't read too much into my use of the word 'resources', it's not a downplay or sterilizing euphemism, it's one of my 'words' like some people use 'Indeed' or 'In Fact'. If you look up 'resources' on the search engine here you'll see that I account for over 10% of the use of the word with a fair number of the others being also suspiciously close in time to a post by me indicating a quote.

I will try to avoid using that phrase involving what guns don't do but people do do, but we don't actually seem to be in disagreement over it, you've said nearly the identical same thing as I did, that, to be careful not to use the phrase, very deadly objects are very helpful committing murder, but generally do not actually do the deed themselves, and will in many but not all cases if unavailable be substituted with an equal or inferior also deadly object, which may result in fewer deaths, have no effect, or perhaps result in the crime not taking place. I'm not sure what there is to agree or disagree with in that statement, though I do certainly sympathize with pet peeves where overuse of stock phrases and jingo are concerned.

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