Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM
It is going around in circles because there is research backing the statement (which I have cited) but also research backing the opposite conclusion. Neither study surveyed the general population, so their conflicting conclusions cannot be extrapolated to it, forcing us to rely on logic alone. That logic is fairly compelling; returning yet again to square one, there is no reasonable way contraception access could deter sex, and many ways in which it encourages it, ergo it can only encourage sex.
It so happens that the study I found showing contraception access encouraged sex also (logically) showed the increased rate of sexual activity was FAR less than the contraceptions success rate. In other words, despite prompting increased sexual activity, contraception access significantly lowered pregnancy rates, as we would expect, and that is a powerful argument for expanding contraception access whenever possible.
The fly in the ointment is, as it usually is on this issue, minors, whose legal consent is their legal guardians responsibility. I know of no one, not even Santorum and his fellow right wing Catholic lawmakers, who argue adult access to contraception be restricted (though the definition of "restricted" varies with whom we ask.) However, minor access to contraception is a widely contentious issue, precisely because guardians responsible for their well being and legal consent object to things encouraging minors to give illegal consent.
It so happens that the study I found showing contraception access encouraged sex also (logically) showed the increased rate of sexual activity was FAR less than the contraceptions success rate. In other words, despite prompting increased sexual activity, contraception access significantly lowered pregnancy rates, as we would expect, and that is a powerful argument for expanding contraception access whenever possible.
The fly in the ointment is, as it usually is on this issue, minors, whose legal consent is their legal guardians responsibility. I know of no one, not even Santorum and his fellow right wing Catholic lawmakers, who argue adult access to contraception be restricted (though the definition of "restricted" varies with whom we ask.) However, minor access to contraception is a widely contentious issue, precisely because guardians responsible for their well being and legal consent object to things encouraging minors to give illegal consent.
Rick Santorum believes that contraception is morally damaging, and that states should be allowed to ban it if they want. We have seen the religious right and social conservatives in general (most of whom are closely associated with the "pro-life" movement) take the recent "controversy" over the DHHS ruling that health plans must cover contraception without copay as an invitation to oppose it as much as possible. This is about health plans provided to adults, so nobody can claim to be concerned about minors here. There's now a bill in the Arizona legislature to let employers fire women who use contraception so that they can have sex freely. These people have been making my point for me every single day for weeks now.
You treat "the movement" as a monolithic organization whose pro-contraception members are trivially small anomalies and/or mutely passive followers, and it has been amply demonstrated that is not the case. There is a broad range of pro-life positions that includes millions of ardently pro/anti-contraception members, just as there are millions who accept abortion as a necessary evil under varying degrees of conditions. I would be in that last camp myself were it not for the fact I see few practical means of establishing restrictions that are not both immorally coercive and lethally ineffective.
Indeed, among the millions with a given qualified position some identify as pro-choice and others as pro-life depending on how absolutely they view those they consider opponents. Much of that is a product of each sides absolutists courting those with qualified positions by defining THEIR opponents in absolute terms, but whether it is pro-lifers defining pro-choice as "abortion on demand up to the moment of birth" or pro-choicers defining pro-life as "anti-choice and anti-contraception in any circumstances" it is equally unfair, inaccurate and counterproductive. People can be and many people are ardently pro-life and pro-contraception, lending their time, money and energy to both causes.
Fine, let us assume for the sake of argument there are "only" 145 million self-identified pro-lifers in the US; how significant is that difference? Answer: About 5%. It still defies plausibility to suggest more than a tiny fraction oppose contraception. According to the CDC, contraception use among US adults of child-bearing age is around 80% for women and >70% for men:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5406a1.htm
According to another CDC survey of women 18-44, 98% of those who have had sex at least once used contraception at least once.
American opposition to contraception itself is VERY low, probably only a single digit percentage even among 145 million pro-lifers. The debate is over the best forms and the basis of its availability.
Sorry, I merged my Catholic Midwestern GOP House members named Ryan; my bad. The one from OH made a significant effort to "curb the failures of the movement and push it in the right direction," at no small professional risk. I would also say he associates with a movement that shares his ABORTION views, at least in part, even though it does not share his views on some other reproductive health matters. Though how much the second part is true may depend on whether we are speaking of public policy or personal practice. As a Roman Catholic, his church categorically forbids contraception, but it does not follow from that that Congressman Ryan must oppose or even limit public access to it, any more than Catholic Sen. John Kerry must oppose Roe v. Wade because of his personal opposition to abortion.
There is a definite gray scale involved in dealing with 300 million peoples views on a deeply important issue, especially when only 6% take NO position.
Indeed, among the millions with a given qualified position some identify as pro-choice and others as pro-life depending on how absolutely they view those they consider opponents. Much of that is a product of each sides absolutists courting those with qualified positions by defining THEIR opponents in absolute terms, but whether it is pro-lifers defining pro-choice as "abortion on demand up to the moment of birth" or pro-choicers defining pro-life as "anti-choice and anti-contraception in any circumstances" it is equally unfair, inaccurate and counterproductive. People can be and many people are ardently pro-life and pro-contraception, lending their time, money and energy to both causes.
Fine, let us assume for the sake of argument there are "only" 145 million self-identified pro-lifers in the US; how significant is that difference? Answer: About 5%. It still defies plausibility to suggest more than a tiny fraction oppose contraception. According to the CDC, contraception use among US adults of child-bearing age is around 80% for women and >70% for men:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5406a1.htm
According to another CDC survey of women 18-44, 98% of those who have had sex at least once used contraception at least once.
American opposition to contraception itself is VERY low, probably only a single digit percentage even among 145 million pro-lifers. The debate is over the best forms and the basis of its availability.
Sorry, I merged my Catholic Midwestern GOP House members named Ryan; my bad. The one from OH made a significant effort to "curb the failures of the movement and push it in the right direction," at no small professional risk. I would also say he associates with a movement that shares his ABORTION views, at least in part, even though it does not share his views on some other reproductive health matters. Though how much the second part is true may depend on whether we are speaking of public policy or personal practice. As a Roman Catholic, his church categorically forbids contraception, but it does not follow from that that Congressman Ryan must oppose or even limit public access to it, any more than Catholic Sen. John Kerry must oppose Roe v. Wade because of his personal opposition to abortion.
There is a definite gray scale involved in dealing with 300 million peoples views on a deeply important issue, especially when only 6% take NO position.
The "pro-life" movement does not consist of every person who has a negative opinion about abortion. The movement is the people who actively dedicate their time and energy to stopping abortion as their cause. Having a positive opinion about civil rights did not automatically make one part of the Civil Rights Movement in past decades, either. I have made my use of the term explicitly clear, and moreover (once again) it fits with conventional, accepted usage, while your interpretation does not.
Tim Ryan did make an effort to push the movement in the right direction, but I have seen no evidence that he and his supporters in the movement constitute a majority of it.
The people who hold an idea deserve respect whether or not the idea does. However, and far more importantly, you continue begging the question: Who said the pro-life "movement" categorically opposes contraception, let alone from a vindictive desire sexually active people who do not want kids be "punished" with them anyway? Really, there are already enough pro-lifers who think pro-choicers view children as a blight to be purged; do not encourage them. Many pro-lifers took that position in the first place because they consider even undesired children a great benefit (sadly, many do not feel that strongly enough to help any underprivileged parents rear those undesired children, though many others do feel that strongly.)
People deserve respect whether or not their ideas do, but misrepresenting the unrespectable ideas of some as those of all does not justify disrepecting all.
You have not demonstrated puritanical sexual mores are their only concern, only alleged it.
Regardless, there is a deeper issue here than your misunderstanding of millions of pro-lifers: Your misunderstanding of millions of pro-choicers. The leaders of the pro-life movement (who, IMHO, are just as puritanical as you claim) learned the hard way that lumping every juvenile victim of incestuous rape with executives who abort inconvenient pregnancies only alienated those sympathetic to the former. It drove millions of people who abhor abortion but recognize the need in cases of teen pregnancy, rape, and poverty into allegiance with those advocating abortion on demand.
Believe it or not, those puritans are not as unsophisticated as you might like to think; that is why they shifted tactics two decades ago. They no longer shout, "BABY KILLER111" as they unleash some killing of their own; now they concentrate on things like late-term abortion bans (cleverly marketed as "partial-birth" abortion bans.) Pro-life leaders are wooing back those qualified supporters of abortion, and alienating them by demonizing them along with and as synonymous with pro-life leaders is just conceded the fight for their hearts and minds. America is still a constitutional republic governed by laws, not referenda, but republics enact their laws via referenda, so it is a bad idea to aid ones opponents efforts to gain popular majorities.
People deserve respect whether or not their ideas do, but misrepresenting the unrespectable ideas of some as those of all does not justify disrepecting all.
You have not demonstrated puritanical sexual mores are their only concern, only alleged it.
Regardless, there is a deeper issue here than your misunderstanding of millions of pro-lifers: Your misunderstanding of millions of pro-choicers. The leaders of the pro-life movement (who, IMHO, are just as puritanical as you claim) learned the hard way that lumping every juvenile victim of incestuous rape with executives who abort inconvenient pregnancies only alienated those sympathetic to the former. It drove millions of people who abhor abortion but recognize the need in cases of teen pregnancy, rape, and poverty into allegiance with those advocating abortion on demand.
Believe it or not, those puritans are not as unsophisticated as you might like to think; that is why they shifted tactics two decades ago. They no longer shout, "BABY KILLER111" as they unleash some killing of their own; now they concentrate on things like late-term abortion bans (cleverly marketed as "partial-birth" abortion bans.) Pro-life leaders are wooing back those qualified supporters of abortion, and alienating them by demonizing them along with and as synonymous with pro-life leaders is just conceded the fight for their hearts and minds. America is still a constitutional republic governed by laws, not referenda, but republics enact their laws via referenda, so it is a bad idea to aid ones opponents efforts to gain popular majorities.
Who said it? I said it, as a conclusion from observing how the movement acts and on what it focuses. The only real objection you've offered is that they just appear to oppose contraception due to worries about teen sex, but numerous recent anti-contraception actions make this seem even weaker than it did previously.
Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit)
02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM
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The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing
02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM
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I agree.
02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM
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Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill.
03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM
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I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal.
03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM
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If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked.
03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM
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That is a little unfair.
03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM
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Won't someone please think of the children?!
04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM
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I think you're leaving out some important points.
04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM
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Ah, the good ol' silent majority.
04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM
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So which moron is feeding you this crap?
04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM
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It worries me when we think alike....
05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM
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Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth.
05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM
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"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation."
05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM
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Oh please.
05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM
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Re: Oh please yourself.
06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM
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Quite a telling reply.
07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM
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Re: I quite agree.
08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM
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You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip.
09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM
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No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me.
11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM
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I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments.
14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM
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I presented factual rebuttals.
19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM
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You continue to miss the point.
23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM
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No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source."
07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM
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The claim of brain waves at 8 weeks is still unsupported by evidence, i.e. a myth.
15/03/2012 09:16:14 PM
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Well, yes.
04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM
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A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects.
05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM
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You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect.
05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM
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Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case.
04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM
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Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case.
05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM
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If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree.
05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM
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Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree.
05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM
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Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree.
06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM
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I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though.
07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM
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Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM
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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it.
15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM
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There are problems with the implants
03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM
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Any form of birth control doesn't work for everyone, though.
03/02/2012 02:37:00 AM
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Oh yes, I totally agree! My point is just that there are some barriers to handing out implants *NM*
03/02/2012 03:38:05 AM
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What on earth does that have to do with anything?
03/02/2012 01:47:42 AM
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I was actually kinda with you until you closed with that anathema I condemned in my response to rt.
03/02/2012 01:39:06 PM
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I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart
02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM
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I agree.
02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM
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yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other
02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM
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Right
02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM
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it is a judgment call and I hope her decision is based on more than my guesses
02/02/2012 06:53:50 PM
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Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side?
02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM
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No, I don't. I don't believe I said that?
02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM
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You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry.
02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM
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I know I'm not always clear.
02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM
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Just curious...
02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM
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Not at all.
02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM
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Not at all?
02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM
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No.
02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM
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My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes
02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM
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Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes
03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM
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wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks
03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM
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Ooor, the best.
03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM
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ok now you are just being mean *NM*
03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM
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The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM*
03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM
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Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant...
02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM
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You don't know stuff.
02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM
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I know the stuff that matters.
02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM
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they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN
02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM
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"Accused" of = unfounded slander.
03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM
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did you notice I called tactic disgusting? That doesn't mean it isn't effective
03/02/2012 12:45:10 AM
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The investigation by Congress is well-known to be specious. It's the House GOP abusing their power. *NM*
03/02/2012 12:41:58 AM
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This is so foreign a debate for me
02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM
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Re: stuff
03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM
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I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer"
03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM
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Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no.
04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM
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I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that
04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM
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Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense.
02/02/2012 10:54:34 PM
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Re: Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense.
02/02/2012 11:03:32 PM
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After a little more digging I have to say you are probably right.
03/02/2012 02:23:14 AM
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They restored funding incidentally
03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM
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Unless I've missed it
03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM
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You must have missed it then
03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM
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If you're referring to Cannoli
03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM
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Multiple was not an accidental choice of words
03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM
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Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you.
04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM
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Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you.
04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM
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well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision
03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM
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Re: well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision
03/02/2012 06:29:34 PM
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I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen.
03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM
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Beyond the 26 senators, I'd imagine rumor of the more reliable sort
03/02/2012 08:46:31 PM
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Well, if they wrote AS senators rather than friends of Nancy Brinker, that probably qualifies.
03/02/2012 10:24:11 PM
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Judge for yourself
04/02/2012 12:01:06 AM
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Well, a public letter makes whether they signed it "Sen. so-and-so" irrelevant: It is political.
04/02/2012 04:07:20 PM
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are you trying to disprove the study you posted?
03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM
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To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover.
03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM
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you admit you have no incite into what happened
04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM
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Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite.
04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM
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educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker
04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM
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