Citing scripture does not justify telling me to kill myself.
Joel Send a noteboard - 13/03/2012 12:08:02 AM
Iconoclasm was certainly not a dispute over doctrine that led to the Great Schism. It had been thoroughly excoriated at the end of the second iconoclast wave and both the Eastern and Western Churches adhered to (and still adhere to) the findings of the Second Nicaean Council. The controversy was over 300 years before the Great Schism and both churches were in agreement.
If you bothered to read the article you would see that at no point was it stated that the iconoclast heresy had any impact whatsoever on the Great Schism. The schism of Photius was completely healed, just like the Avignon Schism in the West. It was totally irrelevant at the time of the Great Schism except, as I have repeatedly said, insofar as it set a precedent of papal interference in matters of the Eastern Church, which is at best a tangential affect.
If you bothered to read the article you would see that at no point was it stated that the iconoclast heresy had any impact whatsoever on the Great Schism. The schism of Photius was completely healed, just like the Avignon Schism in the West. It was totally irrelevant at the time of the Great Schism except, as I have repeatedly said, insofar as it set a precedent of papal interference in matters of the Eastern Church, which is at best a tangential affect.
Sorry if I was not clear; I will try to rectify that, if belatedly:
Jurisdictional disputes between Rome and Constantinople existed long before iconoclasm, and continued long after it. The formal Great Schism occurred well after iconoclasm ended; I can subtract 842 from 1054 and get 212 (a fair number of years short of 300, incidentally.) HOWEVER, the permanent Schism due to jurisdictional disputes (in addition to secular politics and language,) was only the formal declaration of a practical schism reaching back to iconoclasm as surely as it reaches back further. Iconoclasms exacerbation of that split endured long after iconoclasm itself ceased; it is not "tangential," but illustrative. Again, just because the Pope, Patriarch and Emperors all ultimately came to agreement against iconoclasm does not undo the effect of a previous Byzantine emperor telling a previous pope he would come to Rome to destroy icons and imprison the Bishop of Rome, or a previous Roman emperor condemning the Second Council of Nicaea as heretical.
Which brings me back to my initial statement: everything you said in your initial statement was wrong. Rome, frequently headed by Greek-speaking popes who recognized Byzantium prior to the schism, was not menaced by pagans in the eighth century and had no more reason to find itself against iconoclasm than Constantinople, which was routinely attacked by pagan Bulgars and Russians during that exact period, and menaced by the Muslims in Syria and on the seas. Iconoclasm may have drawn inspiration from Muslim- and Jewish-influenced thinking, which was more prevalent in the East, but Rome was not drawn to a need to defend the images for any of the reasons you stated.
I already conceded my statements on WHY Rome defended icons was only speculation, which I thought indicated as such at the time. Those consist of two sentences, hardly the "rant" you condemned them as. Catholic absorption of paganism may not have been official policy, but was official PRACTICE reflected in adoption of customs, worship sites and yes, even deities and heroes preserved as saints, in some cases to this very day. That and iconoclasms contributions to pre-existing jurisdictional disputes culminating in the Great Schism are both attested by the Roman Catholic Church itself, as I demonstrated with links to the Catholic Encylopedia.
Just admit you're wrong. You not only look like a moron, but you post things that have nothing to do with the issue at dispute and string them together. On that note, may I recommend you read Matthew 27:5, Luke 10:37, and then Deuteronomy 13:18.
Correct me if I am wrong (or am not; you never need to be asked in either case) but I believe that series of passages is traditionally cited as NEGATIVE evidence with regard to the bible as random oracle. Deuteronomy 13:18 (or any of the bible) is hardly consistent with telling someone to commit suicide. That latest and most extreme ad hominem eliminates whatever faint hope remained of constructive discussion. I get that you dislike me and the way I write; you need not restate that each time I post, nor does doing so constitute a rebuttal of my posts. Rip into me again if you like, but do not mistake my silence for assent.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 13/03/2012 at 12:46:16 AM
Atheism: The Iconoclasm of the West?
10/03/2012 05:42:56 AM
- 1291 Views
I think about as highly of athiesm as I do of christianity. *NM*
10/03/2012 05:54:20 AM
- 355 Views
I would chide you on that basis for having a love/hate relationship with God, but who does not?
10/03/2012 06:05:11 AM
- 521 Views
If the divine made men...
10/03/2012 06:27:42 AM
- 516 Views
True, but by the same token, in denying our nature we deny the divine.
10/03/2012 06:57:40 AM
- 531 Views
I was actually just saying in Skype this is the first post you've made in a long time I've enjoyed.
10/03/2012 07:02:56 AM
- 550 Views
But you do comparable things all the time!
10/03/2012 08:35:31 AM
- 744 Views
You've made this analogy before and it's still a bad one, those aren't comparable
10/03/2012 03:43:08 PM
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You said what I was thinking far more respectfully than I probably would have.
11/03/2012 12:14:55 AM
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You're right and wrong.
10/03/2012 05:09:32 PM
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Re: You're right and wrong.
11/03/2012 12:28:25 AM
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Nope, Buddhists are explicitly atheist and also explicitly Ontologically engaged
11/03/2012 01:39:20 AM
- 849 Views
Actually, Buddhists are not explicitly atheist in the conventional sense of the world.
11/03/2012 02:42:36 AM
- 648 Views
I guess it is that old impersonalism that seems the great disappointment in most Eastern religions.
11/03/2012 04:48:54 AM
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What you talkin' 'bout, Willis? *NM*
10/03/2012 06:29:35 PM
- 278 Views
I think he's saying that most arguments used on behalf of Atheism actually come from the Bible.
10/03/2012 06:58:50 PM
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Basically what Dan said; atheism as iconoclasm sans icons (unless we count religion as symbolism.)
11/03/2012 12:46:52 AM
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What exactly do you mean by "The irreparable damage it inflicted in the Great Schism"?
10/03/2012 07:57:59 PM
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That Byzantiums iconoclasm was one of the many wedges between it and Rome that led to the Schism.
11/03/2012 12:27:05 AM
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Bull. Shit.
11/03/2012 01:54:07 AM
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I did not say it was decisive, but that it did irreparable damage to the relationship.
11/03/2012 04:23:43 AM
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Bull. Shit.
11/03/2012 04:30:08 AM
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It is not like I just pulled it out of my rear, any more than my HS history text or Wikipedia did.
11/03/2012 04:57:31 AM
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Bull. Shit.
11/03/2012 05:14:01 AM
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Irreparable damage is damage that cannot be repaired, not necessarily serious or fatal.
11/03/2012 10:34:57 AM
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Mierda.del.Toro
11/03/2012 12:36:59 PM
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1969 may be "sometime back" in Roman Catholic history,but is ~a millenium after the time in question
12/03/2012 05:47:11 PM
- 948 Views
You really must get steamed by anyone calling you out on your hyberbolic comments
12/03/2012 06:55:06 PM
- 808 Views
On the contrary, I am not the one screaming "bullshit" in as many languages as possible.
13/03/2012 12:07:54 AM
- 850 Views
ο κοπρος. του ταυρου.
11/03/2012 02:19:11 PM
- 777 Views
Very edifying; can you do Mandarin or Swahili next?
12/03/2012 05:47:23 PM
- 683 Views
No. Even English seems to be beyond your grasp.
12/03/2012 06:29:50 PM
- 591 Views
Citing scripture does not justify telling me to kill myself.
13/03/2012 12:08:02 AM
- 726 Views
Give it up already. You are wrong.
12/03/2012 12:53:37 AM
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I will do the former at least; pretty sure this "discussion" has reached rock bottom.
13/03/2012 12:12:46 AM
- 539 Views
More or less your last line
11/03/2012 01:37:42 AM
- 615 Views
That is a broader argument, but more consistent with iconoclasms established meaning.
11/03/2012 05:12:12 AM
- 728 Views
Would you include the iconoclasm that Joel cites in the canonical Judeo-Christian tradition as well?
11/03/2012 12:44:49 PM
- 595 Views