Also: good post. Hee.
I think generally speaking you're quite correct in your points about Iconoclasm in the Judeo-Christian tradition prefiguring many of the most prominent contemporary atheist arguments, and it's interesting to see just how prominent and widespread they are in the bible. A girlfriend in a college told me that she thought Abraham was the first Philosopher in positing a one supreme god as a ground of being(s), and I find very little to dispute in that statement, and in yours, except for one point. The notion of "first" and in your case "earliest" examples are not exactly correct.
Anyway, I think you're pretty correct in your statements, but the thing is a lot of similar bursts of both 1) iconoclasm and) ontology happened around the same time, between 600-400 BCE. Certain scholars call this the inception of the "Axial Age". I'll cite two examples in the Indian and Greek traditions.
Indian
As far as I can tell (not very far), the bible was composed between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE. This also, incidentally, is the exact same time period given for the life of Siddhartha Gautama and the inception of Buddhism. Hinduism (some parts? there's some question as to how unified it is) is in fact theistic religion in a lot of ways, furnishing proofs and analyses of their own Prime Mover that they identify as Ishvara. Buddhism is mainly remembered as attacking the notions of karma, reincarnation, and caste, but it also dealt a massive blow the overarching theism present in the typical Hindu religion. The result was a number of schools of Indian philosophy reacting directly against typical buddhist atheist arguments for the next 800 years or so. The Nyaya and Vaisheka schools stand out most particularly, both giving interesting proofs for a prime mover of sorts.
It's also worth noting that even prior to Buddhism, around 700-600 BCE, the Upanishads were written and the Vedanta school of Hindu Philosophy was established. The latter tradition tended to search for a unified (or dual for some schools) ground for all beings, with heavy emphasis on consciousness. These traditions are where the Atman is Brahman sayings come from. I'd think such a thing qualifies as iconoclastic, and ontological.
Greek Philosophy
The second and perhaps more relevant case is that of the Ancient Greek tradition of Philosophy. Socrates was born in 469 and died in 399 BCE. But actually more interesting philosophers for our purposes are what nowadays called the PreSocratic Philosophers. The most prominent one relevant to this discussion is a man named Xenophanes of Colophon, who was born around 540 BC and and lived to almost a hundred, reputedly. His best known verses were attacks on the typical Homeric theology of personal polytheism, which he thought nonsense: "But mortals suppose that gods are born, wear their own clothes, and have a voice and body. Ethiopians say their gods are snub-nosed and black; Thracians that theirs are blue-eyed and red-haired." It was fairly revolutionary, and it carried all the way to Socrates', who in Plato's Apology, was executed for atheism for arguing against this received view of the Gods.
Ontology is also very present in the Presocratic philosophers. Xenophon was reputed to be a Spinoza-like Monist, however that's less well-documented I think. His most prominent student, though, was Parmenides of Elea, who was the first Greek to explicitly single out "το ον" or "Being". He posited that Being was One and Unchanging, and Nothingness quite impossible. He also was the first to explicitly make reference to the distinction between Truth and Illusion, or the way of truth and the way of appearance. The earliest Ontological statement, though, if I recall correctly (and this is according to Heidegger, so) is from Anaximander, who posited Void as the substratum and origin of all things, which "must return to the void according to justice" or something like that.
Anyway, we see two almost exactly parallel traditions of both iconoclasm and ontology, which is good evidence for something like the Axial age. Undoubtedly they eventually cross-pollinated each other, but I don't know really quite how much. It's definitely unclear what came first. In fact, my guess is that the thoughts had been around for some time and it simply took a while to get them written down. One mediary between the Jewish monotheism and the Greeks could in fact be the Egyptians, and I'm sure that Xenophanes was influenced by them. I'm not sure how to fit Akhenaton into things, but he's certainly, certainly a fascinating contemporary (or predecessor? Need to read a bit more) to the Jewish tradition.
Anyway, that's all for now. Please forgive the inevitable typing errors and lack of citations or full quotes. I haven't been able to refine this with a computer proper. Anyone who's more interested in anything or wants quotes I will discuss happily until you are tired of it!
I think generally speaking you're quite correct in your points about Iconoclasm in the Judeo-Christian tradition prefiguring many of the most prominent contemporary atheist arguments, and it's interesting to see just how prominent and widespread they are in the bible. A girlfriend in a college told me that she thought Abraham was the first Philosopher in positing a one supreme god as a ground of being(s), and I find very little to dispute in that statement, and in yours, except for one point. The notion of "first" and in your case "earliest" examples are not exactly correct.
Anyway, I think you're pretty correct in your statements, but the thing is a lot of similar bursts of both 1) iconoclasm and) ontology happened around the same time, between 600-400 BCE. Certain scholars call this the inception of the "Axial Age". I'll cite two examples in the Indian and Greek traditions.
Indian
As far as I can tell (not very far), the bible was composed between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE. This also, incidentally, is the exact same time period given for the life of Siddhartha Gautama and the inception of Buddhism. Hinduism (some parts? there's some question as to how unified it is) is in fact theistic religion in a lot of ways, furnishing proofs and analyses of their own Prime Mover that they identify as Ishvara. Buddhism is mainly remembered as attacking the notions of karma, reincarnation, and caste, but it also dealt a massive blow the overarching theism present in the typical Hindu religion. The result was a number of schools of Indian philosophy reacting directly against typical buddhist atheist arguments for the next 800 years or so. The Nyaya and Vaisheka schools stand out most particularly, both giving interesting proofs for a prime mover of sorts.
It's also worth noting that even prior to Buddhism, around 700-600 BCE, the Upanishads were written and the Vedanta school of Hindu Philosophy was established. The latter tradition tended to search for a unified (or dual for some schools) ground for all beings, with heavy emphasis on consciousness. These traditions are where the Atman is Brahman sayings come from. I'd think such a thing qualifies as iconoclastic, and ontological.
Greek Philosophy
The second and perhaps more relevant case is that of the Ancient Greek tradition of Philosophy. Socrates was born in 469 and died in 399 BCE. But actually more interesting philosophers for our purposes are what nowadays called the PreSocratic Philosophers. The most prominent one relevant to this discussion is a man named Xenophanes of Colophon, who was born around 540 BC and and lived to almost a hundred, reputedly. His best known verses were attacks on the typical Homeric theology of personal polytheism, which he thought nonsense: "But mortals suppose that gods are born, wear their own clothes, and have a voice and body. Ethiopians say their gods are snub-nosed and black; Thracians that theirs are blue-eyed and red-haired." It was fairly revolutionary, and it carried all the way to Socrates', who in Plato's Apology, was executed for atheism for arguing against this received view of the Gods.
Ontology is also very present in the Presocratic philosophers. Xenophon was reputed to be a Spinoza-like Monist, however that's less well-documented I think. His most prominent student, though, was Parmenides of Elea, who was the first Greek to explicitly single out "το ον" or "Being". He posited that Being was One and Unchanging, and Nothingness quite impossible. He also was the first to explicitly make reference to the distinction between Truth and Illusion, or the way of truth and the way of appearance. The earliest Ontological statement, though, if I recall correctly (and this is according to Heidegger, so) is from Anaximander, who posited Void as the substratum and origin of all things, which "must return to the void according to justice" or something like that.
Anyway, we see two almost exactly parallel traditions of both iconoclasm and ontology, which is good evidence for something like the Axial age. Undoubtedly they eventually cross-pollinated each other, but I don't know really quite how much. It's definitely unclear what came first. In fact, my guess is that the thoughts had been around for some time and it simply took a while to get them written down. One mediary between the Jewish monotheism and the Greeks could in fact be the Egyptians, and I'm sure that Xenophanes was influenced by them. I'm not sure how to fit Akhenaton into things, but he's certainly, certainly a fascinating contemporary (or predecessor? Need to read a bit more) to the Jewish tradition.
Anyway, that's all for now. Please forgive the inevitable typing errors and lack of citations or full quotes. I haven't been able to refine this with a computer proper. Anyone who's more interested in anything or wants quotes I will discuss happily until you are tired of it!
Atheisms best most enduring arguments ironically have their earliest expression in the Hebrew Tanakh, whence they were the basis for both Byzantine iconoclasm and Islams Hadith prohibiting images of living things. Biblical writers scathingly condemn pagan worship of fabricated idols without motion, speech or action, instead asserting a Creator of materials and craftsmen alike. In the same vein, biblical scribes repeatedly repudiate then popular notions of divinity limited to local power, arguing any genuine deity must have equal power in all places. It is thus easy to view contemporary atheism as the most developed form of rejecting gods made in mans image, which has an ancient and proud pedigree in Western civilization all the way back to the Abrahamic religions founding scriptures.
In an infamous case, the prophet Elijah is depicted challenging the priests of Baal to a "miracle-off:" Both sides would build an altar, fill it with sacrifices and pray for fire from heaven to consume it; the god who answered would be recognized as divine and the other rejected, with his priests summarily executed for blasphemy. The text relates that while the Baalites made increasingly frantic but ever fruitless pleas heavenward, Elijah sarcastically mocked them by telling them to pray louder, in case Baal was asleep, or on vacation, or "indisposed." Afterward, the narrative states he uttered his own prayer, immediately answered by fire from the sky consuming the sacrifice (and altar, and water that had been dumped on the sacrifice until it filled a surrounding trench; biblical scribes had no truck with equivocation. ) The better known deuterocanonical story of Bel and the Dragon is similar: The Babylonian king is said to affirm Bel as a god because its food and drink offerings are consumed daily; the prophet Daniel then demonstrates Bel does nothing of the sort, but is only a dead statue.
The dynamic recurs throughout the Old and New Testaments (in the first chapter of Romans, Paul reiterates it with his customary rigor and harshness) and is thus integral to the Western world, yet similarly significant and seminal Eastern examples are hard to find. Iconoclasm as such is not only common but sometimes pathological in the West and Mid-East (the latter is more truly Western than Eastern in the modern era, despite widely professed hatred for the West.) Again, the eponymous Orthodox case may be the most pivotal historical example, but Islam has its own, made notorious by the recent controversy over drawings of Mohammed.
In the Americas and Western Europe such fanaticism seems incomprehensible, but that mainly reflects a more recent tradition of pagan symbolism in those areas than in the Mid-East that first assaulted it. Incorporating pagan deities as Catholic saints rather than attacking them as idols was vital to Christianitys spread throughout both Western Europe and the New World, so iconoclasm has less orthodoxy. The irreparable damage it inflicted in the Great Schism makes more sense on that basis. The Roman Catholic Church would have been naturally reluctant to surrender a missionary tool indispensable in Early Medieval northern and western Europe. Yet what made it appealing in the West (pagan polytheism) was already largely absent Asia Minor, so the value was not only minor, but offensive, as an accomodation of paganism. It is certainly easy to imagine the same fervor and absolutism atheism affirms, on grounds of the same negative evidence, growing into similar fanaticism.
One sidebar: The Pentateuchs "I am 'I AM'" is also a strikingly advanced ontological statement for its era. It always interests me to see the bible present counter-arguments to atheism hundreds, if not thousands, of years before they would receive any response except, "wait... you're saying there are people who do not believe in ANY god?! " For ignorant primitives there is a lot of rather sophisticated "modern" thought in those old texts. On the other hand, some philosopher I read somewhere claimed there is nothing new under the sun. Note: NOT trying to proselytize; just thought it might make an interesting discussion.
In an infamous case, the prophet Elijah is depicted challenging the priests of Baal to a "miracle-off:" Both sides would build an altar, fill it with sacrifices and pray for fire from heaven to consume it; the god who answered would be recognized as divine and the other rejected, with his priests summarily executed for blasphemy. The text relates that while the Baalites made increasingly frantic but ever fruitless pleas heavenward, Elijah sarcastically mocked them by telling them to pray louder, in case Baal was asleep, or on vacation, or "indisposed." Afterward, the narrative states he uttered his own prayer, immediately answered by fire from the sky consuming the sacrifice (and altar, and water that had been dumped on the sacrifice until it filled a surrounding trench; biblical scribes had no truck with equivocation. ) The better known deuterocanonical story of Bel and the Dragon is similar: The Babylonian king is said to affirm Bel as a god because its food and drink offerings are consumed daily; the prophet Daniel then demonstrates Bel does nothing of the sort, but is only a dead statue.
The dynamic recurs throughout the Old and New Testaments (in the first chapter of Romans, Paul reiterates it with his customary rigor and harshness) and is thus integral to the Western world, yet similarly significant and seminal Eastern examples are hard to find. Iconoclasm as such is not only common but sometimes pathological in the West and Mid-East (the latter is more truly Western than Eastern in the modern era, despite widely professed hatred for the West.) Again, the eponymous Orthodox case may be the most pivotal historical example, but Islam has its own, made notorious by the recent controversy over drawings of Mohammed.
In the Americas and Western Europe such fanaticism seems incomprehensible, but that mainly reflects a more recent tradition of pagan symbolism in those areas than in the Mid-East that first assaulted it. Incorporating pagan deities as Catholic saints rather than attacking them as idols was vital to Christianitys spread throughout both Western Europe and the New World, so iconoclasm has less orthodoxy. The irreparable damage it inflicted in the Great Schism makes more sense on that basis. The Roman Catholic Church would have been naturally reluctant to surrender a missionary tool indispensable in Early Medieval northern and western Europe. Yet what made it appealing in the West (pagan polytheism) was already largely absent Asia Minor, so the value was not only minor, but offensive, as an accomodation of paganism. It is certainly easy to imagine the same fervor and absolutism atheism affirms, on grounds of the same negative evidence, growing into similar fanaticism.
One sidebar: The Pentateuchs "I am 'I AM'" is also a strikingly advanced ontological statement for its era. It always interests me to see the bible present counter-arguments to atheism hundreds, if not thousands, of years before they would receive any response except, "wait... you're saying there are people who do not believe in ANY god?! " For ignorant primitives there is a lot of rather sophisticated "modern" thought in those old texts. On the other hand, some philosopher I read somewhere claimed there is nothing new under the sun. Note: NOT trying to proselytize; just thought it might make an interesting discussion.
Atheism: The Iconoclasm of the West?
10/03/2012 05:42:56 AM
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I think about as highly of athiesm as I do of christianity. *NM*
10/03/2012 05:54:20 AM
- 357 Views
I would chide you on that basis for having a love/hate relationship with God, but who does not?
10/03/2012 06:05:11 AM
- 526 Views
If the divine made men...
10/03/2012 06:27:42 AM
- 521 Views
True, but by the same token, in denying our nature we deny the divine.
10/03/2012 06:57:40 AM
- 536 Views
I was actually just saying in Skype this is the first post you've made in a long time I've enjoyed.
10/03/2012 07:02:56 AM
- 556 Views
But you do comparable things all the time!
10/03/2012 08:35:31 AM
- 750 Views
You've made this analogy before and it's still a bad one, those aren't comparable
10/03/2012 03:43:08 PM
- 634 Views
You said what I was thinking far more respectfully than I probably would have.
11/03/2012 12:14:55 AM
- 601 Views
You're right and wrong.
10/03/2012 05:09:32 PM
- 947 Views
Re: You're right and wrong.
11/03/2012 12:28:25 AM
- 854 Views
Nope, Buddhists are explicitly atheist and also explicitly Ontologically engaged
11/03/2012 01:39:20 AM
- 853 Views
Actually, Buddhists are not explicitly atheist in the conventional sense of the world.
11/03/2012 02:42:36 AM
- 652 Views
I guess it is that old impersonalism that seems the great disappointment in most Eastern religions.
11/03/2012 04:48:54 AM
- 756 Views
What you talkin' 'bout, Willis? *NM*
10/03/2012 06:29:35 PM
- 279 Views
I think he's saying that most arguments used on behalf of Atheism actually come from the Bible.
10/03/2012 06:58:50 PM
- 643 Views
Basically what Dan said; atheism as iconoclasm sans icons (unless we count religion as symbolism.)
11/03/2012 12:46:52 AM
- 657 Views
What exactly do you mean by "The irreparable damage it inflicted in the Great Schism"?
10/03/2012 07:57:59 PM
- 723 Views
That Byzantiums iconoclasm was one of the many wedges between it and Rome that led to the Schism.
11/03/2012 12:27:05 AM
- 645 Views
Bull. Shit.
11/03/2012 01:54:07 AM
- 717 Views
I did not say it was decisive, but that it did irreparable damage to the relationship.
11/03/2012 04:23:43 AM
- 734 Views
Bull. Shit.
11/03/2012 04:30:08 AM
- 601 Views
It is not like I just pulled it out of my rear, any more than my HS history text or Wikipedia did.
11/03/2012 04:57:31 AM
- 676 Views
Bull. Shit.
11/03/2012 05:14:01 AM
- 751 Views
Irreparable damage is damage that cannot be repaired, not necessarily serious or fatal.
11/03/2012 10:34:57 AM
- 821 Views
Mierda.del.Toro
11/03/2012 12:36:59 PM
- 702 Views
1969 may be "sometime back" in Roman Catholic history,but is ~a millenium after the time in question
12/03/2012 05:47:11 PM
- 954 Views
You really must get steamed by anyone calling you out on your hyberbolic comments
12/03/2012 06:55:06 PM
- 815 Views
On the contrary, I am not the one screaming "bullshit" in as many languages as possible.
13/03/2012 12:07:54 AM
- 855 Views
ο κοπρος. του ταυρου.
11/03/2012 02:19:11 PM
- 783 Views
Very edifying; can you do Mandarin or Swahili next?
12/03/2012 05:47:23 PM
- 688 Views
No. Even English seems to be beyond your grasp.
12/03/2012 06:29:50 PM
- 595 Views
Citing scripture does not justify telling me to kill myself.
13/03/2012 12:08:02 AM
- 732 Views
Give it up already. You are wrong.
12/03/2012 12:53:37 AM
- 901 Views
I will do the former at least; pretty sure this "discussion" has reached rock bottom.
13/03/2012 12:12:46 AM
- 545 Views
More or less your last line
11/03/2012 01:37:42 AM
- 621 Views
That is a broader argument, but more consistent with iconoclasms established meaning.
11/03/2012 05:12:12 AM
- 733 Views
Would you include the iconoclasm that Joel cites in the canonical Judeo-Christian tradition as well?
11/03/2012 12:44:49 PM
- 600 Views