Active Users:1096 Time:14/11/2024 10:55:55 PM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Re: Hey, man, I am an AMERICAN: I do not HAVE to know ANYTHING! Joel Send a noteboard - 08/03/2012 02:56:02 PM
It is actively discouraged in much of the country, and some consider it grounds for revoking citizenship. ;)

I noticed. :P

You just do not appreciate "Real America" (as opposed to the other 2/3 of it. ;))
Yeah, I remember you mentioning that, but I was thinking in terms of the varying degree to which the royal prerogative is restricted, and how much its remaining extent is real vs. nominal. From what I recall reading, Gladstone was once unable to resume the office of PM simply because Queen Victoria detested him, so even as late as the Nineteenth Century Britains PM very much required the monarchs approval. As I understand things, the outgoing Norwegian PM recommends a replacement for the king to appoint, but whether rejecting that replacement would mean a constitutional crisis orsimply nominating another I can only guess. It is kind of bizarre to think of the king as the only citizen with NO franchise.

Yeah, those were different days... but they are well behind us. Like I said, I don't know much about Norwegian politics but I strongly doubt Haakon has the power to reject a PM who has the support of a majority in parliament.

I honestly do not know. I believe there are still a few countries where the monarch rejecting a PM would simply mean the majority party selecting a different one.

Well, extreme positions are typically unwise, especially in politics. Your point on stability and multi-party viability is well taken (Isaac also referenced that in defence of Americas system, as you probably noticed.)

I don't really know that that's the kind of thing your maxim about extremes applies to... and Dom did a pretty good job there of undermining my entire point by making Canada sound even worse than Israel and the Netherlands in terms of stability. Or as bad, anyway. Still, in most cases the rule applies. I'm not sure there's any single democracy system that is really superior to the others - it depends on your country to begin with, and they've all had their good and bad days.

I really meant the comments on extremism and stability as separate issues, but there is obviously a relationship between them. I would say, however, it is more that stability discourages extremism than extremism encourages instability. Countries can and do have quite large extremist factions whose influence is limited by stability in the political process. It has not always been sufficient, but much of the American system was consciously designed with that goal; it encourages broad moderate positions because extremist majorities are difficult to achieve nationally.

America does have a history of pivotal exceptions to the rule that regional single member districts deter multi-party states though. In the years just prior to the Civil War, regional differences over slaverys expansion fatally split the Democratic Party that had enjoyed single party national rule a generation earlier, and that dynamic resurfaced a century later when Strom Thurmond and, later, George Wallace carried several states as Dixiecrats. Progressive Republicans under TR and then Robert La Follette (both of whom wore the "Happy Warrior" moniker in succession) similarly undermined that party in the early Twentieth Century, and the combined appeals of both threatened Trumans 1948 election as much as the Republican nominee Thomas Dewey did. And, of course, without the Greens Gore would have easily won NH as well as FL, making either state an acceptable loss by itself (which would have been historic in that a president would have been elected despite losing 2/3 in FL, PA and OH.) Establishing strong regional bases from which to build national support—and recruit experienced candidates—is still the only viable option for American third parties. Failure to do that in the West, South and Midwest is probably what doomed the Reform Party whose spoiler effect was indispensable to Clintons election.

I'm well aware, but as you point out yourself, those exceptions all fit one or both of the categories of exceptions predicted in the model: brief-lived third parties, and regional third parties. The US is probably the strongest two-party duopoly in world politics - after all, the UK does have a serious nation-wide third party that has been around ever since the days when it was the second or indeed first party, and as for Canada, well, see Dom's smackdown of my post. :P It must have to do with force of habit as well as some smaller details (gerrymandering and the inherently two-party system of your Congress come to mind).

Yes, if we accept those two exceptions America does follow the general rule pretty well, which is why national third parties rarely survive long. Gerrymandering undoubtedly plays a role, because as much as the two major parties despise each other, they despise the others more. While each attempts to marginalize the other in re-districting, neither wish to do so at the expense of empowering a third party.

I see; that is definitely a big feature I was completely unaware of in the European right. I guess it makes sense; many Republicans have for decades sneered at the hypocrisy of the Democratic Party trumpeting its civil rights accomplishments despite slavish devotion to unions in many places saturated with open racism and sexism. The big difference is that an economically liberal right IS almost totally foreign to my experience. The closest America has ever come to that was Father Coughlins public populism and clandestine support for Hitler. His contemporary, Huey Long, is probably most associated with "American fascism," but, being elected governor and then senator in the Deep South despite railing against poll taxes and other racial inequality, he mainly illustrates the American rights confusion over the differences between communism and socialism vs. fascism.

I would think it's an important thing to be aware of, even for an American, at least if that American is going to be facing "Hitler was a leftie" arguments on a regular basis.

Most definitely; I will certainly have to study it further.

The relation between the American right and the European far-right is interesting to follow, sometimes - the way the European far-right leaders are sometimes embraced in America and sometimes spat out, depending on the subject and the circumstances. Mostly they are ignored, though, which is probably for the best.

Undoubtedly, all things considered. The alternative conjures images of the Black Panthers and Klan fighting a race war in the streets. (8 The American far rights reaction to Breivik (i.e. using him as an excuse to again denounce his victims' liberalism) continues to worry me.

I tend to, but should not, take for granted that supporting social programs that benefit urban and labor constituents precludes racist agendas. With the notable exception of Jews, multiculturalism strikes me as a more novel issue for Europe than in America, and the welfare state far less so. Partisan reflections of that are natural.

Definitely so - large-scale multiculturalism in its current sense, in many though not all European countries, dates back only to the sixties, exactly when the American civil rights movement was breaking down (institutional) racism in the US.

And no, you definitely should not take that for granted.

Clearly not.

Seven seems like a good number to me; five would probably be ideal, but any multipartisan environment favors the development of one or two niche parties catering to regional or other narrow interests. They are not terribly counterproductive if they align almost entirely with one of the broad major parties on all other issues. More importantly, they ensure issues vital but specific to key demographics receive recognition both directly, through their party, and indirectly, through the influence its kingmaking ability has on coalitions.

Fair enough. Belgium would only really have five or six if not for that little detail of having two of each political stripe what with the language thing. Much as I hate to say anything that might make Belgium sound like an example of good politics... :P

Ah, yes, I keep forgetting about ya'lls need for a French and Dutch speaking version of every party. True multiculturalism, as opposed to totally homogenized or totally segregated societies, is not easy. I think I need to do some more work on my little fantasy allegory about that.... ;)
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Now That Romney Is Officially the Republican Presidential Nominee: Pick the President! Joel - 29/02/2012 08:29:02 PM 1240 Views
I agree Romney will be the candidate. Tom - 29/02/2012 08:54:52 PM 638 Views
I would say the math favors Romney over Obama, but it will probably be close either way. Joel - 01/03/2012 03:37:52 PM 684 Views
I have never understood the point of the Electoral College. Tim - 29/02/2012 11:39:11 PM 687 Views
You don't think like a politician then Isaac - 01/03/2012 12:38:36 AM 730 Views
I certainly hadn't considered much of that. I'm glad you posted it. *NM* Ghavrel - 01/03/2012 07:15:03 AM 310 Views
I also have not seen most of that mentioned in the popular vs. electoral debate. Joel - 01/03/2012 02:34:31 PM 615 Views
what about one vote one value? wadsy - 02/03/2012 11:51:32 PM 698 Views
That has not really changed. Joel - 03/03/2012 03:30:34 AM 881 Views
a bit simplistic and unrealistic wadsy - 02/03/2012 11:44:02 PM 657 Views
When illustrating a point realism is not required and simplicity is a plus Isaac - 03/03/2012 03:04:26 AM 671 Views
I have a couple quibbles. Joel - 03/03/2012 05:23:46 AM 699 Views
Oh, certainly, I'm over-generalizing but I was already getting long-winded Isaac - 03/03/2012 06:52:04 AM 661 Views
I hate when people do that. Joel - 05/03/2012 09:49:36 AM 641 Views
What a bunch of waffle! wadsy - 03/03/2012 10:47:19 AM 799 Views
First you complain of simplicity then of my lack of brevity? Isaac - 03/03/2012 11:18:11 AM 593 Views
A simplistic argument doesn't mean it's brief *NM* wadsy - 03/03/2012 09:55:51 PM 327 Views
Also I don't like this refrain that implies only the POTUS vote matters Isaac - 03/03/2012 03:29:58 AM 816 Views
IMHO, parliaments choosing prime ministers is LESS democratic than the electoral college. Joel - 03/03/2012 05:57:41 AM 619 Views
Re: IMHO, parliaments choosing prime ministers is LESS democratic than the electoral college. Isaac - 03/03/2012 07:02:30 AM 656 Views
*is learning* Joel - 04/03/2012 09:49:42 PM 647 Views
Re: *is learning* Isaac - 04/03/2012 09:56:16 PM 661 Views
To the extent I can (yet again) claim to speak for Europeans... Legolas - 04/03/2012 10:33:01 PM 636 Views
I've fairly limited exposure and that from some years back Isaac - 04/03/2012 11:35:12 PM 697 Views
Re: *is learning* Joel - 05/03/2012 12:08:08 AM 699 Views
You could imitate the French. Legolas - 07/03/2012 10:40:16 PM 628 Views
That seems... unlikely.... Joel - 08/03/2012 03:03:54 PM 635 Views
It does, doesn't it? Legolas - 08/03/2012 06:11:08 PM 831 Views
After I thought about it more, I realized France and the US are not so different in that respect. Joel - 08/03/2012 08:51:03 PM 610 Views
More similar than the other major Western democracies at least, agreed. Legolas - 08/03/2012 09:32:55 PM 587 Views
I did not realize lack of a parliamentary majority dictated his cabinet. Joel - 09/03/2012 12:27:31 AM 667 Views
I don't know much about Norwegian politics, but you seem to be wrong. Legolas - 03/03/2012 06:18:08 PM 668 Views
Do you happen to have that link, please? Joel - 03/03/2012 06:46:31 PM 550 Views
Sure. Legolas - 03/03/2012 06:58:07 PM 721 Views
Guess we did not read far enough. Joel - 03/03/2012 10:38:07 PM 668 Views
Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics... Legolas - 03/03/2012 11:49:44 PM 869 Views
Hey, man, I am an AMERICAN: I do not HAVE to know ANYTHING! Joel - 04/03/2012 11:46:57 PM 891 Views
Re: Hey, man, I am an AMERICAN: I do not HAVE to know ANYTHING! Legolas - 05/03/2012 11:14:42 PM 1203 Views
Re: Hey, man, I am an AMERICAN: I do not HAVE to know ANYTHING! Joel - 08/03/2012 02:56:02 PM 727 Views
Re: Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics... DomA - 05/03/2012 06:56:24 AM 671 Views
The thing is, regions often have national relevance far greater than their populations would suggest Joel - 05/03/2012 10:21:26 AM 620 Views
Fascinating. Legolas - 05/03/2012 10:52:32 PM 650 Views
Re: Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics... Macharius - 08/03/2012 07:11:12 PM 621 Views
Many valid reasons, including those Isaac cited. Joel - 02/03/2012 02:26:37 AM 768 Views
Most states are ignored anyway wadsy - 02/03/2012 11:56:12 PM 845 Views
Only because and to the extent they have already committed themselves. Joel - 03/03/2012 03:41:39 AM 692 Views
Why would we do something logical? Dude, you're utterly ridiculous. *NM* callandor1000 - 05/03/2012 04:53:38 PM 364 Views
I'm kind of sad- does this mean Santorum won't be providing wonderful sound bites anymore? beetnemesis - 01/03/2012 02:22:31 PM 612 Views
Nothing has shut him up yet, why should this? *NM* Dannymac - 01/03/2012 05:27:30 PM 348 Views
Maybe he'll pull a Palin and go touring around the country *NM* beetnemesis - 01/03/2012 07:06:02 PM 317 Views
No, it probably means we will get more and worse than ever. Joel - 01/03/2012 11:25:25 PM 787 Views
Romney or Obama, either way, America loses. *NM* Hieshyn - 02/03/2012 01:10:26 AM 438 Views
Hard to dispute that either; six of one, half a dozen of the other. Joel - 02/03/2012 01:38:07 AM 589 Views
Couldn't agree more *NM* Hieshyn - 02/03/2012 06:52:51 PM 356 Views
It reminds me of when Denver backed into the NFL playoffs. Joel - 02/03/2012 09:36:13 PM 576 Views
I'd agree hope and change was extremely unrealistic wadsy - 02/03/2012 11:58:57 PM 585 Views
Well, you know my story there; I voted for Obama and got Hillary (at best.) Joel - 03/03/2012 01:43:20 AM 605 Views
Update: Despite rules requiring they be split, the MI GOP is giving Romney BOTH statewide delegates. Joel - 02/03/2012 11:10:56 PM 695 Views
Romney is damaged wadsy - 02/03/2012 11:27:33 PM 601 Views
Obama is rather damaged also; it will probably come down to FL and OH, yet again. Joel - 03/03/2012 02:23:53 AM 705 Views
I'm hoping for Rubio as VP... then FL probably won't matter Isaac - 03/03/2012 04:28:08 AM 592 Views
You should put that on your license plates. Joel - 03/03/2012 06:41:34 AM 715 Views
Re: You should put that on your license plates. Isaac - 03/03/2012 06:51:00 AM 657 Views
Ax murderers are people, too! Joel - 04/03/2012 08:23:41 PM 613 Views
And what are you basing all of this on? wadsy - 03/03/2012 09:54:06 PM 703 Views
The closeness of several states when Obama was far more popular, and UTs heavily Mormon neighbors. Joel - 03/03/2012 11:44:06 PM 650 Views
Wrong wadsy - 04/03/2012 08:08:56 AM 776 Views
Higher turnout magnifies the Mormon effect. Joel - 04/03/2012 08:08:09 PM 813 Views
Your reasoning is flawed and if you can't see it there is no hope for you wadsy - 05/03/2012 11:39:04 PM 720 Views
Yeah, I think we had that conversation already, several times, in fact. Joel - 07/03/2012 05:36:45 AM 555 Views
Do you have any knowledge of statistics at all? wadsy - 07/03/2012 09:04:15 PM 715 Views
I hate this message board wadsy - 07/03/2012 09:06:30 PM 510 Views
It would probably help if you deleted the stuff from two, three posts back? Legolas - 07/03/2012 09:25:40 PM 627 Views
Some, though it is far from exhaustive. Joel - 08/03/2012 02:29:06 PM 694 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes