Active Users:1116 Time:22/11/2024 07:35:39 AM
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." Joel Send a noteboard - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM
Not gonna happen; she has no credentials and plays fast and loose, not to mention self-servingly, with the facts, data and conclusions, so she has no credibility.
I have neither the energy nor the desire to repeat the same pointless conversation over and over again, as you merely restate your tangential remarks with each post.

This is the situation: the "pro-life" movement often makes claims that fetuses have "brain waves" at 8 weeks (or earlier). "Brain wave", as we have both noted, is not a technical term. That means we have to consider what the people making the statement are implying by their specific use of the term in order to judge the statement accurately.

There is the rub; not only do none of the doctors your source cite use the term "brain waves," but virtually all of them are careful NOT to take a specific position on what the various detected first trimester brain activity means. It is misinterpreting (at best) or falsifying (at worst) the facts to claim they state first trimester fetal EEGs indicate living beings; it is no less so to claim they state such EEGs indicate NON-beings. The evidence is inconclusive, and one of the sources referenced in your source as much as says that; that your source then proceeds to attack both not only his conclusions but his credibility demonstrates nothing but her own bias.

The "pro-life" movement has only one motivation to make such a statement: they think that it supports their view that fetuses are people. The relevant question, then, is whether or not fetuses have the same kind of "brain waves," or in general electric activity read by EEG, that people with functioning brains have. A trace of the sources cited for this claim shows no evidence in support of such a similarity, and actually some evidence against it.

When we begin debating whether an EEG at one stage of development is on par with an EEG at another stage we increasingly move from matters of fact to those of opinion. In general, I still tend to credit investigators with doctorates in medicine, law or (in Dr. Goldenrings case) BOTH over a policy advocate with no formal education on the matter who consults (and derides) their research second hand. Particularly when she falsely claims them to take a position they do not just because their conclusions do not support her position. When the medical and legal scholar with decades of practice, study and research says, "inconclusive," but the partisan advocate with none of those things says, "conclusive; he just mistated his data because he is pro-life," it is obvious which is credible.

That is the end of it. A claim was made; the claim, in its intended meaning, is probably false based just on the sources which supposedly supported it. Further, more direct research (such as the paper I originally linked) into fetal brain development shows that the higher brain functions have not developed, making the claim even more obviously false.

The partisan pro-lifer claim first trimester fetuses are beings with the brainwaves of same is currently unverifiable; whether it is false is therefore unknowable. However, the claim, and thus the burden of proving it, is theirs; the evidence is inconclusive, so they have not met that burden and their claim is unsubstantiated. I have no argument there, but any counterclaim faces the same insurmountable challenges.

Your sources problem lies there, because she addresses that issue by attacking the doctors' conclusion their studies ALLOW no conclusion. That does not validate the blank check she wishes written, so it is not enough to refute pro-lifer claims first trimester fetal EEGs demonstrate a being: She seeks to affirm the position those EEGs demonstrate a NON-being, and consequently maligns all doctors who state otherwise. Had she restricted herself to refuting her partisans on the other side I would have no argument; my issue is that her agenda obliged her to falsely malign doctors as well, and that she overreached herself in the process.

If my higher brain functions were destroyed, then my self/personality/mind/etc. would be gone. What remained (body, whatever was left of the lower brain) would not be a person.

That is a large, dubious, contentious and SEPARATE debate (just ask Michael Schiavo and his former in-laws.)
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2192 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 1082 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 995 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 1054 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 965 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 978 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 940 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 1026 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1235 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 1023 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 965 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 940 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 964 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 959 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 1000 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1102 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 1015 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 979 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 856 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 921 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1126 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 965 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 987 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1224 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 1016 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1107 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM 1025 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 1026 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 970 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1064 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 964 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 588 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 1054 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 964 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 798 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 966 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 947 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 1043 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1134 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 1002 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 1031 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1096 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 1010 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1310 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 965 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1224 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 989 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 975 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1124 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 906 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 973 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1024 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 972 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 880 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 962 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 965 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 947 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 1011 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 902 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 863 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 955 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 953 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 916 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 899 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 587 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 533 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 550 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 958 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 2000 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 889 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 961 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 907 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 1031 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 994 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 896 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 986 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 1038 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 1048 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 1014 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 639 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 912 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 944 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 957 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 902 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 972 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 890 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 978 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 894 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 1046 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 923 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 956 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1146 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 977 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 945 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1090 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 897 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 1001 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 893 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 1021 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 923 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 945 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 994 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 892 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 834 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 989 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 963 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 862 Views

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