No atheist with any sense will claim that the negative has been proven and a god cannot possibly exist. You're trying to define atheism out of existence, but all that does is removes a useful label. The two positions I set out above are both common, so it's useful in discourse to have two separate terms for them. Widening one term so as to include both, while narrowing the other term such that it fits almost nobody, is not helpful to the discussion; nor does it undermine either of the two positions.
Absent irrefutable evidence, I would say, "not." "Almost completely irrefutable" is the same as "irrefutable" to the same extent "almost completely alive" is the same as "alive" (i.e. not at all.) A somewhat ironic difference between proof and evidence is that negative forms of the latter, but not the former, are possible.
The root problem is that existence of a deity is a metaphysical question, but many materialists pretend that is somehow not a metaphysical position and therefore not subject to metaphysical rules. That is no more valid than a biologist insisting cells are unaffected by gravity, or a geologist claiming rocks do not oxidize.
Absolute proof of anything is difficult to impossible to obtain, in law, philosophy, science or anywhere. The best we can do in nearly every case is a very high degree of evidence (and I contend negative evidence against a deity is far from irrefutable; quite the opposite, IMHO.) Yet the difficulty of obtaining absolute proof does not grant the ability to claim rational certainty absent proof, only preclude absolute certainty in nearly all cases.
We cannot rationally say, "Well, OK, disproving a deity would be proving a negative and therefore impossible—but there is still no deity!" Appending "OK, there might possibly be a deity, but there definitely is not" makes the first statement less, not more, rational.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 05/03/2012 at 12:03:11 PM
Do you know the best way to anger an atheist?
28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM
- 1856 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously.
28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM
- 1187 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that.
28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM
- 945 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude.
28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM
- 983 Views
It is an act of love.
29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM
- 1007 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity)
29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM
- 897 Views
I have some disturbing news for you...
29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM
- 945 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so
29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM
- 955 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated....
29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM
- 810 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM
- 932 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM
- 956 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours...
29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM
- 967 Views
I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 09:05:29 AM
- 1328 Views
Re: I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 06:26:06 PM
- 1108 Views
There are 3 critical distinctions: 1) Ability to sin, 2) Awareness of sin and 3) Appreciation of sin
05/03/2012 04:08:36 AM
- 878 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one.
29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM
- 1052 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous.
29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM
- 956 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo
29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM
- 988 Views
"Spiritual rape" might be going a bit far, but otherwise that sounds about right.
02/03/2012 08:06:48 AM
- 1018 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though?
28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM
- 1012 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said
28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM
- 802 Views
that won't work on Buddists
28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM
- 951 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM*
28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM
- 472 Views
That's always been my view of the issue. Half-assed non-religious types are just as obnoxious too.
28/02/2012 10:34:12 PM
- 1165 Views
Seems a got both a pat on the back and a scathing rebuke. I call that a good day
28/02/2012 11:57:45 PM
- 1234 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM*
28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM
- 615 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist."
28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM
- 1096 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism.
29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM
- 1036 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but...
29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM
- 833 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born.
05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM
- 970 Views
So what do you call this position?:
05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM
- 926 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean.
05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
- 981 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous.
05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM
- 805 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not?
05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM
- 1032 Views
What's happening
05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM
- 1014 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition.
07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM
- 1321 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people?
07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM
- 919 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes.
11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM
- 794 Views
Whatever.
12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM
- 1235 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree."
13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM
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I have known very few people who "believe" their religion from rearing and actually understand it.
29/02/2012 12:08:01 PM
- 1163 Views
I thought that was "best way to make an atheist roll his/her eyes at you"? *NM*
29/02/2012 11:05:21 PM
- 565 Views