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What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born. Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM
...which doesn't fit with how people actually describe themselves. [Fuller response delayed due to lack of time.]

Which very well fits how the vast majority of people subscribing to either have historically described themselves. In fact, admittedly cursory and sleep deprived scanning indicates the term "positive atheist" is younger than I (albeit not by much.)

Prescriptivism aside, "I do not know," is only "I do not know." If you claim knowledge rather than belief then, congratulations: You are an atheist, or "positive atheist," if you prefer; the definition fits both terms. However, that makes it untenable to claim a deity possible. Possibility and refuting evidence (i.e. knowledge there is no deity) cannot coexist. It is contradictory to say something is (not "may be," but IS) both false and possible; things known to be false are also impossible. Admitting Gods possibility therefore precludes stating His non-existence certain, and if it is uncertain we are dealing with agnosticism, not atheism.

According to the 2005 printing of The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, (though the definition has evidently been present since the first printing in 1967:)
In the most general use of the term, agnosticism is the view that we do not know whether there is a God or not.

According to the 1998 edition of the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas an atheist and a theist believe and disbelieve, respectfully. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that deities do or do not exist. In so far as one holds that our beliefs are rational only if they are sufficiently supported by human reason, the person who accepts the philosophical position of agnosticism will hold that neither the belief that God exists nor the belief that God does not exist is rational.

"Positive" and "negative" atheism are canards, attempts to claim certainty without the insurmountable inconvenience of having to prove it. When was the last time you heard of a lawyer winning a case with a summation like, "I cannot prove the defendant innocent; his guilt is a possibility—but I KNOW he is innocent"? That is just the kind of bias that gets potential jurors eliminated from pools. Reasonable doubt requires demonstrating evidence of guilt is insufficient (which may be true without INVALIDATING the evidence;) otherwise it is UNreasonable doubt. Yet even reasonable doubt only exists to prevent errant penalties; to the extent the concept is relevant at all, it argues Pascals Wager is "reasonably" certain (though that wager remains wrongly motivated, IMHO.)

Note that substituting "believe" for "know" makes the statement less rather than more convincing. Of course he believes the defendant innocent, else he would have sought a plea bargain or avoided the case entirely, yet that establishes nothing but his extreme overestimation of his ability to prove his case. It makes him a poor defender, not a "negative" one. Believing ones estimate of the odds on Pascals Wager very good makes it no more certainty or less probability. Claiming an undefinable probability is not only high, but high enough to equal certainty, reflects an embarrassingly bad grasp of what "probability" means.

Likewise, "negative atheism" is a poor dodge. It is a case of atheists no longer insisting they have (impossibly) proven a negative, but treating it as proven while insisting they do not, incidentally arguing the far more numerous agnostics are really atheists. That makes as much sense as me telling agnostics who believe in a deity, spirituality or any supernatural phenomenon they are really "negative Christians." Y'know, like Muslims and Hindus are. :P It is similar to Mormons "posthumously baptizing" Jewish Holocaust victims into their religion; the only difference is that many agnostics are still around to refute the declaration they are atheists.

A small population inventing a meaningless term to obscure dogmatism and feign inclusiveness does not legitimize it, certainly not after a single generation that makes its usage uncommon outside their own ranks and not universal even among them. If I defined "Americans living in Norway" as "negative Martians," in defiance of logic and language, it would be absurd. That would remain true in 2040, even if half of them and ten percent of others used the term that way by then.
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Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM 1947 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously. - 28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM 1286 Views
Ooo that is hilarious *NM* - 28/02/2012 08:22:19 PM 457 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that. - 28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM 1030 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude. - 28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM 1072 Views
It is an act of love. - 29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM 1079 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity) - 29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM 975 Views
I have some disturbing news for you... - 29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM 1016 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so - 29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM 1048 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated.... - 29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM 874 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM 996 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM 1054 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours... - 29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM 1032 Views
I'm surprised to see some of this. - 01/03/2012 12:11:31 PM 893 Views
You said it was really effing rude. - 29/02/2012 08:18:40 PM 1063 Views
I meant that the act of choosing for someone else - 29/02/2012 08:54:02 PM 960 Views
Question - 29/02/2012 07:58:32 PM 1034 Views
No, I don't blame them or think they are fools. - 29/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 1005 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one. - 29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM 1124 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous. - 29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM 1029 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo - 29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM 1062 Views
You are trying your best to not understand. - 29/02/2012 07:12:57 PM 1048 Views
I suspect that that is where a lot of the issue with it lies. - 02/03/2012 01:33:43 AM 1099 Views
one thing - 29/02/2012 06:25:45 PM 1068 Views
Precisely *NM* - 29/02/2012 06:59:15 PM 502 Views
Bad example - 05/03/2012 05:06:21 AM 1117 Views
Why would they be angry about that? - 02/03/2012 01:23:56 AM 1186 Views
Denying people rights since it was written 3000 years ago? - 28/02/2012 07:44:02 PM 984 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though? - 28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM 1087 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said - 28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM 872 Views
Only if I get to be Pope. - 28/02/2012 08:25:45 PM 981 Views
I love me my vices! Thanks Pope - 28/02/2012 10:14:27 PM 868 Views
Generally the same way you piss off anyone else - 28/02/2012 08:43:04 PM 996 Views
Great post. - 28/02/2012 09:18:38 PM 1005 Views
I find that the best way is to smile. - 29/02/2012 06:23:50 AM 1009 Views
Some answers - 28/02/2012 09:05:35 PM 939 Views
that won't work on Buddists - 28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM 1017 Views
On the other hand ... - 28/02/2012 09:28:27 PM 868 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM 503 Views
LOL same *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:31:38 PM 478 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM 646 Views
Telling anyone what they actually believe will work. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:56 PM 471 Views
This kind of works for many, doesn't it? - 29/02/2012 06:22:33 PM 883 Views
I'm an atheist, and I consider it to be my religion. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:00 PM 446 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist." - 28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM 1175 Views
I second that - 29/02/2012 03:46:15 AM 990 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism. - 29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM 1103 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but... - 29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM 908 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born. - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM 1035 Views
So what do you call this position?: - 05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM 1003 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM 1069 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. - 05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM 884 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not? - 05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM 1103 Views
What's happening - 05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM 1087 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition. - 07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM 1411 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people? - 07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM 990 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes. - 11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM 877 Views
Whatever. - 12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM 1342 Views
*NM* - 12/03/2012 01:14:39 AM 506 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree." - 13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM 1153 Views
I saw it as.... - 13/03/2012 10:44:37 PM 913 Views
My browser does not like your gif. - 13/03/2012 11:32:06 PM 1162 Views
I have a few good quotes for this one. - 29/02/2012 03:29:22 PM 999 Views
I snerfled. *NM* - 29/02/2012 05:12:32 PM 490 Views
Re: That's it? *NM* - 01/03/2012 06:33:48 AM 545 Views
Re: Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 02/03/2012 01:47:03 AM 937 Views

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