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I have a couple quibbles. Joel Send a noteboard - 03/03/2012 05:23:46 AM
Even though I am inclined to just nuke some popcorn, sit back and watch the show.... :whistle:
During the primaries the candidates spend a lot of time in the non-swing states. Iowa isn't one.

In passing, I must note that is a very good point: Because the primaries mirror the Electoral College to a great degree, many states that are "safe" in the general election (and therefore receive little attention) are hotly contested during the primaries, often by both parties. That forces all candidates to visit most states and become somewhat familiar with (or at least aware of) the issues most relevant to residents. Without the Electoral College the primaries would probably be decided by popular vote also and the whole affair become a purely urban concern.

We can talk about red state blue state but there's really no such thing, a state with few exceptions is essentially red or blue based on its urban vs rural breakdown, cities are not really capable of rebellion, one could do it but not all of them at once. Cleveland isn't going to break off with NYC to form a new country.

Here I must quibble; while I realize you qualified your statement, it is not as simple as red vs. blue equaling rural vs. urban (and to the extent it is, the suburbs swing.) Correct me if I am wrong (it is your home state, after all) but Columbus and Cleveland would make OH pretty blue despite its large rural population—except Cincinatti is pretty red. It was one of things I found hinky about the 2004 election; despite all the reports of folks in Cleveland and Columbus giving up on voting after 10 hours in the cold November rain due to insufficient electronic voting machines, no such problems were reported in Cincinatti. Given that Bush won re-election by (essentially) 160,000 votes in OH, that bothered me a lot. ;)

Cannoli recently suggested all the liberals in Houston and Dallas should not be allowed to turn TX blue, but the fact is there ain't that many liberals in Houston or Dallas, else they would do exactly that whether he liked it or not. In fact, as I pointed out to him, the most liberal, or at least Democratic, areas in TX consist of a single city (Austin) and rural areas in the Rio Grande Valley and the Piney Woods. Those are the areas that benefited most from farm subsidies and other largely Democratic federal programs designed for subsistence farmers, though Democrats embracing and Republicans largely abandoning racial equality helped in the Valley (but hurt in the more traditionally Southern east.)

Without the Electoral College, presidential elections would become an almost purely urban campaign, but it does not follow from that Democrats would own the White House (though even if it did that would be a partisan and poor reason for changing election laws.) Rural areas tend to be red and urban areas tend to be blue, but it is only a very loose tendency, close enough in most places that it is not automatic unless the state as a whole is very partisan and/or one of the nominees is absolutely awful. I suspect those arguing for a direct popular vote from purely partisan motives would quickly find that out the hard way if it were adopted. Democrats lost the rural regions when they turned their backs on farmers, and turning their backs on (the rest of) labor is hurting them in cities now, too, else OH would not even be close and PA, MI and WI would never be in play.

And you base that off what? Any particular clause of the Constitution or federal law? Also, do keep in mind I'm discussing general voting concepts to someone who is not an American. Concepts like paying voters, mandatory reg or voting, electoral holidays, etc all deserve commentary in the general theme of why the birthplace of modern Democracy does things differently then many who have taken up the practice and find our ways incomprehensible.

I do not think that entirely fair, for two reasons.

First and foremost, while the terms can be parsed both ways, America is more a constitutional representative republic than a democracy. Hence our first impulse when the validity of something is challenged is not to consider the majoritys preference, but whether it complies with the Constitution and other federal laws. That is no accident, and ultimately a good thing; it prevents atrocities resulting from a mad and/or inflamed majority deciding all Muslims are terrorists or all pro lifers are fascists, and perpetrating some appalling national tragedy.

I still contend the Ninth and Tenth Amendments effectively prohibit slavery on a similar basis, because that is the idea the Constitution repeatedly reflects: Because we are ultimately governed by LAWS our elected representatives enact, rather than simple referenda by those represenatatives or the general public, minority rights are protected from majority abuse. Thus amending our highest national law requires two-thirds of the states or Congress to propose and three-fourths to ratify it, rather than a simple popular majority. As a result, the US Constitution has only been amended about once per decade in its 220 year existence, and nearly half of those amendments were introduced with it but ratified separately.

The other thing is, it is REALLY unfair to compare America as "the birthplace of modern Democracy" to the UK as a country that "took up the practice." We owe most of our federal character to the successes and failures of British parliamentary democracy, traced all the way back to Runnymede and the first limits on absolute federal power through local representatives of the people. Granted, the petty nobility of the time had little accountability to the people, and the king still retained great power, but by 1776 both of those things had changed drastically.

The problem with Britain then was not that it was undemocratic, per se, but that it did not extend the franchise to colonies. Manchester and Liverpool residents had taxation WITH representation, but the colonies had only royally appointed governors (one of the few powers the monarch retained.) Prime Minister William Pitt echoed protests against taxing unrepresented colonies, but without that representation the parliamentary majority was against him. America considered that tyranny, particularly as both federal taxes and other authority increased without their consent or even consultation, but residents of Guam or the US Virgin Islands might be perplexed at the suggestion todays US is more democratic. ;)

Had Britain not then been "the vanguard of democracy," George III would have simply levied another huge army to send against American colonies that only prevailed at Yorktown because the French navy prevented the arrival of British reinforcements. He certainly WANTED to—but Parliament required he accept a peace and, being little more than a figurehead of a democratically chosen government, he was legally bound to comply.

Not that I disagree with your arguments in the main, I am just being (perhaps unduly) particular on a few of them.
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Now That Romney Is Officially the Republican Presidential Nominee: Pick the President! - 29/02/2012 08:29:02 PM 1246 Views
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You don't think like a politician then - 01/03/2012 12:38:36 AM 734 Views
I also have not seen most of that mentioned in the popular vs. electoral debate. - 01/03/2012 02:34:31 PM 619 Views
what about one vote one value? - 02/03/2012 11:51:32 PM 703 Views
That has not really changed. - 03/03/2012 03:30:34 AM 885 Views
a bit simplistic and unrealistic - 02/03/2012 11:44:02 PM 662 Views
When illustrating a point realism is not required and simplicity is a plus - 03/03/2012 03:04:26 AM 677 Views
I have a couple quibbles. - 03/03/2012 05:23:46 AM 703 Views
Oh, certainly, I'm over-generalizing but I was already getting long-winded - 03/03/2012 06:52:04 AM 667 Views
I hate when people do that. - 05/03/2012 09:49:36 AM 647 Views
What a bunch of waffle! - 03/03/2012 10:47:19 AM 802 Views
First you complain of simplicity then of my lack of brevity? - 03/03/2012 11:18:11 AM 598 Views
A simplistic argument doesn't mean it's brief *NM* - 03/03/2012 09:55:51 PM 330 Views
Also I don't like this refrain that implies only the POTUS vote matters - 03/03/2012 03:29:58 AM 823 Views
IMHO, parliaments choosing prime ministers is LESS democratic than the electoral college. - 03/03/2012 05:57:41 AM 624 Views
Re: IMHO, parliaments choosing prime ministers is LESS democratic than the electoral college. - 03/03/2012 07:02:30 AM 660 Views
*is learning* - 04/03/2012 09:49:42 PM 653 Views
Re: *is learning* - 04/03/2012 09:56:16 PM 665 Views
To the extent I can (yet again) claim to speak for Europeans... - 04/03/2012 10:33:01 PM 641 Views
I've fairly limited exposure and that from some years back - 04/03/2012 11:35:12 PM 700 Views
Re: *is learning* - 05/03/2012 12:08:08 AM 703 Views
You could imitate the French. - 07/03/2012 10:40:16 PM 635 Views
That seems... unlikely.... - 08/03/2012 03:03:54 PM 637 Views
I don't know much about Norwegian politics, but you seem to be wrong. - 03/03/2012 06:18:08 PM 672 Views
Do you happen to have that link, please? - 03/03/2012 06:46:31 PM 555 Views
Sure. - 03/03/2012 06:58:07 PM 728 Views
Guess we did not read far enough. - 03/03/2012 10:38:07 PM 671 Views
Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics... - 03/03/2012 11:49:44 PM 874 Views
Re: Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics... - 05/03/2012 06:56:24 AM 675 Views
Fascinating. - 05/03/2012 10:52:32 PM 655 Views
Re: Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics... - 08/03/2012 07:11:12 PM 625 Views
Many valid reasons, including those Isaac cited. - 02/03/2012 02:26:37 AM 772 Views
Most states are ignored anyway - 02/03/2012 11:56:12 PM 850 Views
Why would we do something logical? Dude, you're utterly ridiculous. *NM* - 05/03/2012 04:53:38 PM 366 Views
I'm kind of sad- does this mean Santorum won't be providing wonderful sound bites anymore? - 01/03/2012 02:22:31 PM 613 Views
Nothing has shut him up yet, why should this? *NM* - 01/03/2012 05:27:30 PM 348 Views
Maybe he'll pull a Palin and go touring around the country *NM* - 01/03/2012 07:06:02 PM 318 Views
No, it probably means we will get more and worse than ever. - 01/03/2012 11:25:25 PM 794 Views
Romney or Obama, either way, America loses. *NM* - 02/03/2012 01:10:26 AM 440 Views
Hard to dispute that either; six of one, half a dozen of the other. - 02/03/2012 01:38:07 AM 596 Views
Couldn't agree more *NM* - 02/03/2012 06:52:51 PM 357 Views
It reminds me of when Denver backed into the NFL playoffs. - 02/03/2012 09:36:13 PM 583 Views
I'd agree hope and change was extremely unrealistic - 02/03/2012 11:58:57 PM 589 Views
Romney is damaged - 02/03/2012 11:27:33 PM 607 Views
Obama is rather damaged also; it will probably come down to FL and OH, yet again. - 03/03/2012 02:23:53 AM 710 Views
I'm hoping for Rubio as VP... then FL probably won't matter - 03/03/2012 04:28:08 AM 596 Views
You should put that on your license plates. - 03/03/2012 06:41:34 AM 720 Views
Re: You should put that on your license plates. - 03/03/2012 06:51:00 AM 665 Views
Ax murderers are people, too! - 04/03/2012 08:23:41 PM 616 Views
And what are you basing all of this on? - 03/03/2012 09:54:06 PM 707 Views
The closeness of several states when Obama was far more popular, and UTs heavily Mormon neighbors. - 03/03/2012 11:44:06 PM 659 Views
Wrong - 04/03/2012 08:08:56 AM 782 Views
Higher turnout magnifies the Mormon effect. - 04/03/2012 08:08:09 PM 818 Views
Your reasoning is flawed and if you can't see it there is no hope for you - 05/03/2012 11:39:04 PM 723 Views
Yeah, I think we had that conversation already, several times, in fact. - 07/03/2012 05:36:45 AM 561 Views
Do you have any knowledge of statistics at all? - 07/03/2012 09:04:15 PM 721 Views
I hate this message board - 07/03/2012 09:06:30 PM 516 Views
Some, though it is far from exhaustive. - 08/03/2012 02:29:06 PM 700 Views

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