Even though I am inclined to just nuke some popcorn, sit back and watch the show....
In passing, I must note that is a very good point: Because the primaries mirror the Electoral College to a great degree, many states that are "safe" in the general election (and therefore receive little attention) are hotly contested during the primaries, often by both parties. That forces all candidates to visit most states and become somewhat familiar with (or at least aware of) the issues most relevant to residents. Without the Electoral College the primaries would probably be decided by popular vote also and the whole affair become a purely urban concern.
Here I must quibble; while I realize you qualified your statement, it is not as simple as red vs. blue equaling rural vs. urban (and to the extent it is, the suburbs swing.) Correct me if I am wrong (it is your home state, after all) but Columbus and Cleveland would make OH pretty blue despite its large rural population—except Cincinatti is pretty red. It was one of things I found hinky about the 2004 election; despite all the reports of folks in Cleveland and Columbus giving up on voting after 10 hours in the cold November rain due to insufficient electronic voting machines, no such problems were reported in Cincinatti. Given that Bush won re-election by (essentially) 160,000 votes in OH, that bothered me a lot.
Cannoli recently suggested all the liberals in Houston and Dallas should not be allowed to turn TX blue, but the fact is there ain't that many liberals in Houston or Dallas, else they would do exactly that whether he liked it or not. In fact, as I pointed out to him, the most liberal, or at least Democratic, areas in TX consist of a single city (Austin) and rural areas in the Rio Grande Valley and the Piney Woods. Those are the areas that benefited most from farm subsidies and other largely Democratic federal programs designed for subsistence farmers, though Democrats embracing and Republicans largely abandoning racial equality helped in the Valley (but hurt in the more traditionally Southern east.)
Without the Electoral College, presidential elections would become an almost purely urban campaign, but it does not follow from that Democrats would own the White House (though even if it did that would be a partisan and poor reason for changing election laws.) Rural areas tend to be red and urban areas tend to be blue, but it is only a very loose tendency, close enough in most places that it is not automatic unless the state as a whole is very partisan and/or one of the nominees is absolutely awful. I suspect those arguing for a direct popular vote from purely partisan motives would quickly find that out the hard way if it were adopted. Democrats lost the rural regions when they turned their backs on farmers, and turning their backs on (the rest of) labor is hurting them in cities now, too, else OH would not even be close and PA, MI and WI would never be in play.
I do not think that entirely fair, for two reasons.
First and foremost, while the terms can be parsed both ways, America is more a constitutional representative republic than a democracy. Hence our first impulse when the validity of something is challenged is not to consider the majoritys preference, but whether it complies with the Constitution and other federal laws. That is no accident, and ultimately a good thing; it prevents atrocities resulting from a mad and/or inflamed majority deciding all Muslims are terrorists or all pro lifers are fascists, and perpetrating some appalling national tragedy.
I still contend the Ninth and Tenth Amendments effectively prohibit slavery on a similar basis, because that is the idea the Constitution repeatedly reflects: Because we are ultimately governed by LAWS our elected representatives enact, rather than simple referenda by those represenatatives or the general public, minority rights are protected from majority abuse. Thus amending our highest national law requires two-thirds of the states or Congress to propose and three-fourths to ratify it, rather than a simple popular majority. As a result, the US Constitution has only been amended about once per decade in its 220 year existence, and nearly half of those amendments were introduced with it but ratified separately.
The other thing is, it is REALLY unfair to compare America as "the birthplace of modern Democracy" to the UK as a country that "took up the practice." We owe most of our federal character to the successes and failures of British parliamentary democracy, traced all the way back to Runnymede and the first limits on absolute federal power through local representatives of the people. Granted, the petty nobility of the time had little accountability to the people, and the king still retained great power, but by 1776 both of those things had changed drastically.
The problem with Britain then was not that it was undemocratic, per se, but that it did not extend the franchise to colonies. Manchester and Liverpool residents had taxation WITH representation, but the colonies had only royally appointed governors (one of the few powers the monarch retained.) Prime Minister William Pitt echoed protests against taxing unrepresented colonies, but without that representation the parliamentary majority was against him. America considered that tyranny, particularly as both federal taxes and other authority increased without their consent or even consultation, but residents of Guam or the US Virgin Islands might be perplexed at the suggestion todays US is more democratic.
Had Britain not then been "the vanguard of democracy," George III would have simply levied another huge army to send against American colonies that only prevailed at Yorktown because the French navy prevented the arrival of British reinforcements. He certainly WANTED to—but Parliament required he accept a peace and, being little more than a figurehead of a democratically chosen government, he was legally bound to comply.
Not that I disagree with your arguments in the main, I am just being (perhaps unduly) particular on a few of them.
During the primaries the candidates spend a lot of time in the non-swing states. Iowa isn't one.
In passing, I must note that is a very good point: Because the primaries mirror the Electoral College to a great degree, many states that are "safe" in the general election (and therefore receive little attention) are hotly contested during the primaries, often by both parties. That forces all candidates to visit most states and become somewhat familiar with (or at least aware of) the issues most relevant to residents. Without the Electoral College the primaries would probably be decided by popular vote also and the whole affair become a purely urban concern.
We can talk about red state blue state but there's really no such thing, a state with few exceptions is essentially red or blue based on its urban vs rural breakdown, cities are not really capable of rebellion, one could do it but not all of them at once. Cleveland isn't going to break off with NYC to form a new country.
Here I must quibble; while I realize you qualified your statement, it is not as simple as red vs. blue equaling rural vs. urban (and to the extent it is, the suburbs swing.) Correct me if I am wrong (it is your home state, after all) but Columbus and Cleveland would make OH pretty blue despite its large rural population—except Cincinatti is pretty red. It was one of things I found hinky about the 2004 election; despite all the reports of folks in Cleveland and Columbus giving up on voting after 10 hours in the cold November rain due to insufficient electronic voting machines, no such problems were reported in Cincinatti. Given that Bush won re-election by (essentially) 160,000 votes in OH, that bothered me a lot.
Cannoli recently suggested all the liberals in Houston and Dallas should not be allowed to turn TX blue, but the fact is there ain't that many liberals in Houston or Dallas, else they would do exactly that whether he liked it or not. In fact, as I pointed out to him, the most liberal, or at least Democratic, areas in TX consist of a single city (Austin) and rural areas in the Rio Grande Valley and the Piney Woods. Those are the areas that benefited most from farm subsidies and other largely Democratic federal programs designed for subsistence farmers, though Democrats embracing and Republicans largely abandoning racial equality helped in the Valley (but hurt in the more traditionally Southern east.)
Without the Electoral College, presidential elections would become an almost purely urban campaign, but it does not follow from that Democrats would own the White House (though even if it did that would be a partisan and poor reason for changing election laws.) Rural areas tend to be red and urban areas tend to be blue, but it is only a very loose tendency, close enough in most places that it is not automatic unless the state as a whole is very partisan and/or one of the nominees is absolutely awful. I suspect those arguing for a direct popular vote from purely partisan motives would quickly find that out the hard way if it were adopted. Democrats lost the rural regions when they turned their backs on farmers, and turning their backs on (the rest of) labor is hurting them in cities now, too, else OH would not even be close and PA, MI and WI would never be in play.
And you base that off what? Any particular clause of the Constitution or federal law? Also, do keep in mind I'm discussing general voting concepts to someone who is not an American. Concepts like paying voters, mandatory reg or voting, electoral holidays, etc all deserve commentary in the general theme of why the birthplace of modern Democracy does things differently then many who have taken up the practice and find our ways incomprehensible.
I do not think that entirely fair, for two reasons.
First and foremost, while the terms can be parsed both ways, America is more a constitutional representative republic than a democracy. Hence our first impulse when the validity of something is challenged is not to consider the majoritys preference, but whether it complies with the Constitution and other federal laws. That is no accident, and ultimately a good thing; it prevents atrocities resulting from a mad and/or inflamed majority deciding all Muslims are terrorists or all pro lifers are fascists, and perpetrating some appalling national tragedy.
I still contend the Ninth and Tenth Amendments effectively prohibit slavery on a similar basis, because that is the idea the Constitution repeatedly reflects: Because we are ultimately governed by LAWS our elected representatives enact, rather than simple referenda by those represenatatives or the general public, minority rights are protected from majority abuse. Thus amending our highest national law requires two-thirds of the states or Congress to propose and three-fourths to ratify it, rather than a simple popular majority. As a result, the US Constitution has only been amended about once per decade in its 220 year existence, and nearly half of those amendments were introduced with it but ratified separately.
The other thing is, it is REALLY unfair to compare America as "the birthplace of modern Democracy" to the UK as a country that "took up the practice." We owe most of our federal character to the successes and failures of British parliamentary democracy, traced all the way back to Runnymede and the first limits on absolute federal power through local representatives of the people. Granted, the petty nobility of the time had little accountability to the people, and the king still retained great power, but by 1776 both of those things had changed drastically.
The problem with Britain then was not that it was undemocratic, per se, but that it did not extend the franchise to colonies. Manchester and Liverpool residents had taxation WITH representation, but the colonies had only royally appointed governors (one of the few powers the monarch retained.) Prime Minister William Pitt echoed protests against taxing unrepresented colonies, but without that representation the parliamentary majority was against him. America considered that tyranny, particularly as both federal taxes and other authority increased without their consent or even consultation, but residents of Guam or the US Virgin Islands might be perplexed at the suggestion todays US is more democratic.
Had Britain not then been "the vanguard of democracy," George III would have simply levied another huge army to send against American colonies that only prevailed at Yorktown because the French navy prevented the arrival of British reinforcements. He certainly WANTED to—but Parliament required he accept a peace and, being little more than a figurehead of a democratically chosen government, he was legally bound to comply.
Not that I disagree with your arguments in the main, I am just being (perhaps unduly) particular on a few of them.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Now That Romney Is Officially the Republican Presidential Nominee: Pick the President!
29/02/2012 08:29:02 PM
- 1261 Views
I agree Romney will be the candidate.
29/02/2012 08:54:52 PM
- 655 Views
I would say the math favors Romney over Obama, but it will probably be close either way.
01/03/2012 03:37:52 PM
- 701 Views
I have never understood the point of the Electoral College.
29/02/2012 11:39:11 PM
- 703 Views
You don't think like a politician then
01/03/2012 12:38:36 AM
- 745 Views
I certainly hadn't considered much of that. I'm glad you posted it. *NM*
01/03/2012 07:15:03 AM
- 314 Views
I also have not seen most of that mentioned in the popular vs. electoral debate.
01/03/2012 02:34:31 PM
- 630 Views
a bit simplistic and unrealistic
02/03/2012 11:44:02 PM
- 672 Views
When illustrating a point realism is not required and simplicity is a plus
03/03/2012 03:04:26 AM
- 689 Views
I have a couple quibbles.
03/03/2012 05:23:46 AM
- 717 Views
Oh, certainly, I'm over-generalizing but I was already getting long-winded
03/03/2012 06:52:04 AM
- 676 Views
What a bunch of waffle!
03/03/2012 10:47:19 AM
- 820 Views
Also I don't like this refrain that implies only the POTUS vote matters
03/03/2012 03:29:58 AM
- 833 Views
IMHO, parliaments choosing prime ministers is LESS democratic than the electoral college.
03/03/2012 05:57:41 AM
- 633 Views
Re: IMHO, parliaments choosing prime ministers is LESS democratic than the electoral college.
03/03/2012 07:02:30 AM
- 670 Views
*is learning*
04/03/2012 09:49:42 PM
- 662 Views
Re: *is learning*
04/03/2012 09:56:16 PM
- 676 Views
Re: *is learning*
05/03/2012 12:08:08 AM
- 716 Views
You could imitate the French.
07/03/2012 10:40:16 PM
- 649 Views
That seems... unlikely....
08/03/2012 03:03:54 PM
- 650 Views
It does, doesn't it?
08/03/2012 06:11:08 PM
- 848 Views
After I thought about it more, I realized France and the US are not so different in that respect.
08/03/2012 08:51:03 PM
- 625 Views
More similar than the other major Western democracies at least, agreed.
08/03/2012 09:32:55 PM
- 604 Views
I did not realize lack of a parliamentary majority dictated his cabinet.
09/03/2012 12:27:31 AM
- 684 Views
I don't know much about Norwegian politics, but you seem to be wrong.
03/03/2012 06:18:08 PM
- 689 Views
Do you happen to have that link, please?
03/03/2012 06:46:31 PM
- 566 Views
Sure.
03/03/2012 06:58:07 PM
- 740 Views
Guess we did not read far enough.
03/03/2012 10:38:07 PM
- 683 Views
Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics...
03/03/2012 11:49:44 PM
- 887 Views
Hey, man, I am an AMERICAN: I do not HAVE to know ANYTHING!
04/03/2012 11:46:57 PM
- 906 Views
Re: Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics...
05/03/2012 06:56:24 AM
- 684 Views
The thing is, regions often have national relevance far greater than their populations would suggest
05/03/2012 10:21:26 AM
- 631 Views
Re: Yeah, you have to know a few things about European politics...
08/03/2012 07:11:12 PM
- 634 Views
Many valid reasons, including those Isaac cited.
02/03/2012 02:26:37 AM
- 784 Views
Most states are ignored anyway
02/03/2012 11:56:12 PM
- 860 Views
Only because and to the extent they have already committed themselves.
03/03/2012 03:41:39 AM
- 709 Views
Why would we do something logical? Dude, you're utterly ridiculous. *NM*
05/03/2012 04:53:38 PM
- 373 Views
I'm kind of sad- does this mean Santorum won't be providing wonderful sound bites anymore?
01/03/2012 02:22:31 PM
- 624 Views
Romney or Obama, either way, America loses. *NM*
02/03/2012 01:10:26 AM
- 448 Views
Hard to dispute that either; six of one, half a dozen of the other.
02/03/2012 01:38:07 AM
- 605 Views
I'd agree hope and change was extremely unrealistic
02/03/2012 11:58:57 PM
- 603 Views
Well, you know my story there; I voted for Obama and got Hillary (at best.)
03/03/2012 01:43:20 AM
- 618 Views
Update: Despite rules requiring they be split, the MI GOP is giving Romney BOTH statewide delegates.
02/03/2012 11:10:56 PM
- 704 Views
Romney is damaged
02/03/2012 11:27:33 PM
- 619 Views
Obama is rather damaged also; it will probably come down to FL and OH, yet again.
03/03/2012 02:23:53 AM
- 724 Views
I'm hoping for Rubio as VP... then FL probably won't matter
03/03/2012 04:28:08 AM
- 606 Views
You should put that on your license plates.
03/03/2012 06:41:34 AM
- 728 Views
And what are you basing all of this on?
03/03/2012 09:54:06 PM
- 719 Views
The closeness of several states when Obama was far more popular, and UTs heavily Mormon neighbors.
03/03/2012 11:44:06 PM
- 674 Views
Wrong
04/03/2012 08:08:56 AM
- 790 Views
Higher turnout magnifies the Mormon effect.
04/03/2012 08:08:09 PM
- 829 Views
Your reasoning is flawed and if you can't see it there is no hope for you
05/03/2012 11:39:04 PM
- 735 Views
Yeah, I think we had that conversation already, several times, in fact.
07/03/2012 05:36:45 AM
- 572 Views
Do you have any knowledge of statistics at all?
07/03/2012 09:04:15 PM
- 735 Views
I hate this message board
07/03/2012 09:06:30 PM
- 530 Views
It would probably help if you deleted the stuff from two, three posts back?
07/03/2012 09:25:40 PM
- 646 Views