Well you bring up an interesting topic. Can there be free will before sin? The answer to that is yes. And the Bible tells explores this for us. Ok...pre-time, creation or whatever...there was God in heaven, with all the angels. It was perfect. It was heaven. Then Lucifer *chose* to rise up and defy God...and a whole third of the angels agreed with this move. So notice this....in an existence of perfection, one individual rebelled against God (that would be sin) because he wanted to (that would be free will).

Now if this was an isolated incident, it would cloud the issue a bit, but it wasn't. A full third of the angels went along with the defiance. That's a pretty good example of the existence of free will within perfection. And also a good example of there being a choice between something you know and something you want (even if its a foreign concept).



Using your own example, you had both ability (to smoke or not to) and awareness (its effects short/long term). Its just that awareness was not personal. For you, it was theory...it was a story told to you by someone else. For whatever reason, you exercised your free will. You made a decision. Your personal motivations, thought process, or expectations are beside the point. The point is that you made a decision.

The same can be said of Eve. She had the ability to make a decision (which she obviously did). And she was aware of the consequences (death). And just like you...that awareness was not personal. It was theory, a concept, that was communicated to her by someone else. As for her motivations, the word alludes to her having a desire to be "over" man...not just his equal. And the fact that she was tempted/tricked into by the serpent that she wouldn't die *right then*. Well, the best lies are tinged with truth, yes? She didn't die right then. And the argument can be made that it wasn't a physical death being referred to at all, but a spiritual death.



So are you saying that God is somehow obligated to explain every little detail? Or is it just enough that God, who well, spoke existence into reality told you to not do something. Yes, death and suffering were foreign concepts to them. What wasn't foreign to them is God telling them something. God *literally* speaking with them...like out loud.



Well here's a fun thought. Was the crucifixion destined to happen from the onset of Creation, or was it a just destined to happen from The Fall? I've pondered this thought, and here's my brain on the matter. Now of course, in this thought process I'm equating Lucifer and the serpent. From however long Lucifer has been in existence, he knows God. He knows God's love. Upon creation of humanity, I think that Lucifer was going to test God. How far does God's love extend? Even if those He loves disobey Him....will He still love them?

What I'm getting to is this. Its my pet-theory that Satan tested to see what God would do. Is this whole "love" thing gonna actually play out long term? Would God "go to the mat" for these humans? I'm not saying that Lucifer can tell the future, or that he's omnicient in any way...I'm just saying that he was testing God.



I think that this may be where you're getting caught up. God didn't create something evil. He created something with free will which itself *chose* evil. That's a very, very big distinction to grasp onto. God created the angels perfectly...yet Lucifer (and the fallen third) chose to do evil. God created humanity perfectly...yet we chose to do evil.

If anything, this should demonstrate that God doesn't want love-robots. He wants someone to choose to love him. To use one of your phrases, love cannot be coerced. To address your question, who tempted Lucifer? I'd saying nothing overtly did. I'd say, if anything, his own "heart" did. By heart, I mean his free will, his emotions, his intelect. The Bible does state that the heart is deceitful. Our emotions are deceitful and lead us to make poor decisions.

Think of Lucifer's situation. God is worshiped. God is God...He always has been. Lucifer, on the other hand, is a created being. He isn't being worshiped...he's the one doing the worship. how far of a reach is it to think that sometime Lucifer thought "I'd like to be worshiped sometime." That started the ball rolling. It wouldn't be long before that turned into overt rebellion, not just an interal thought/concept.


You theological tease.

~Jeordam