The baptism for the dead only aids an applicant, it is not an enrollment. Nobody is admitted unless they ask for admission. Nobody is admitted against their will. Mormons do not believe that a baptism for the dead makes someone a mormon in the hereafter.
Mormons believe that when someone dies and realizes they are not entirely dead they may rethink some of their prior convictions, especially when the gospel is then preached to them in an entirely different set of circumstances than in mortality or for the first time (as in most cases). Mormons believe that in such circumstances some that did not previously want to be admitted will seek admission. If such a person actively seeks admission, then the baptism for the dead can benefit them. If they don't want to be admitted, the baptism for the dead is entirely meaningless and they will likely not even know it happened.
You are trying to add in an element of coercion where there is none. The mormons do not believe they can make you go to the play, they can only leave a ticket should you decide to come. The mormons do not believe they can make you do anything or make you into anything you do not want to become. A mormon baptism for the dead is just as coercive (and intrusive) as if someone had written your name on a piece of paper without your permission and kept it in her home.
And of course all of this has meaning only if the mormons are actually right. If mormonism is entirely fake, then the gospel will not be preached to the dead and the work for the dead done by mormons is totally meaningless. If it is meaningless then why be offended by efforts made in secret that you will never know about unless you try to find out? Would you be angry if you found out that a friend of a different faith said prayers on behalf of your soul.
Mormons believe that when someone dies and realizes they are not entirely dead they may rethink some of their prior convictions, especially when the gospel is then preached to them in an entirely different set of circumstances than in mortality or for the first time (as in most cases). Mormons believe that in such circumstances some that did not previously want to be admitted will seek admission. If such a person actively seeks admission, then the baptism for the dead can benefit them. If they don't want to be admitted, the baptism for the dead is entirely meaningless and they will likely not even know it happened.
You are trying to add in an element of coercion where there is none. The mormons do not believe they can make you go to the play, they can only leave a ticket should you decide to come. The mormons do not believe they can make you do anything or make you into anything you do not want to become. A mormon baptism for the dead is just as coercive (and intrusive) as if someone had written your name on a piece of paper without your permission and kept it in her home.
And of course all of this has meaning only if the mormons are actually right. If mormonism is entirely fake, then the gospel will not be preached to the dead and the work for the dead done by mormons is totally meaningless. If it is meaningless then why be offended by efforts made in secret that you will never know about unless you try to find out? Would you be angry if you found out that a friend of a different faith said prayers on behalf of your soul.
Unwillingly indoctrinating someone into any religion, live or dead, is not acceptable. Ever. And baptism is an opening indoctrination. It's a rite of admission. Well what if you don't want to be admitted? You never did? Too bad! You shouldn't have been died all ignorant like because we just admitted your ass. But you know, you can choose to--wait you're dead. OOPS.
And just having a different opinion is not condescending. Making the presumption that you are right and KNOW BETTER for SOMEONE ELSE is condescending. It's not condescending to go "Hey, I disagree with you and I think I'm right." It's condescending to tell people your religion is better for them. You may not even know them at all!!
it's also condescending to keep trying to discuss it with them when they have clearly shown that they are uninterested.
To use your analogy, it's not condescending to recommend going to a play. It's condescending to arrange someone to go to the play because you think it's good for them. And baptizing people after they're dead is like not telling them there's a play at all.
And if you're baptizing random ass people who never even knew about your religion, I think that's extremely disrespectful towards whatever beliefs they already had. Which, again, is not something you do out of "love". You do it out of presumption that you are right and that everyone needs to be right with you.
Honestly, the only reason I take solace in for this issue is that I believe that we don't live on (at least as our selves) past death. So, luckily, no one actually IS being forced to do anything and they don't have to know anyone's giving them a big old middle finger to their personal choices in life.
And just having a different opinion is not condescending. Making the presumption that you are right and KNOW BETTER for SOMEONE ELSE is condescending. It's not condescending to go "Hey, I disagree with you and I think I'm right." It's condescending to tell people your religion is better for them. You may not even know them at all!!
it's also condescending to keep trying to discuss it with them when they have clearly shown that they are uninterested.
To use your analogy, it's not condescending to recommend going to a play. It's condescending to arrange someone to go to the play because you think it's good for them. And baptizing people after they're dead is like not telling them there's a play at all.
And if you're baptizing random ass people who never even knew about your religion, I think that's extremely disrespectful towards whatever beliefs they already had. Which, again, is not something you do out of "love". You do it out of presumption that you are right and that everyone needs to be right with you.
Honestly, the only reason I take solace in for this issue is that I believe that we don't live on (at least as our selves) past death. So, luckily, no one actually IS being forced to do anything and they don't have to know anyone's giving them a big old middle finger to their personal choices in life.
A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Do you know the best way to anger an atheist?
28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM
- 1856 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously.
28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM
- 1188 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that.
28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM
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Well, for starters, it's really effing rude.
28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM
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It is an act of love.
29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM
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Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity)
29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM
- 897 Views
I have some disturbing news for you...
29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM
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For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so
29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM
- 955 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated....
29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM
- 810 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM
- 933 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM
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I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours...
29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM
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I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 09:05:29 AM
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Re: I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 06:26:06 PM
- 1108 Views
There are 3 critical distinctions: 1) Ability to sin, 2) Awareness of sin and 3) Appreciation of sin
05/03/2012 04:08:36 AM
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It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one.
29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM
- 1053 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous.
29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM
- 957 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo
29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM
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You are trying your best to not understand.
29/02/2012 07:12:57 PM
- 976 Views
"Spiritual rape" might be going a bit far, but otherwise that sounds about right.
02/03/2012 08:06:48 AM
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Isn't religion different than faith, though?
28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM
- 1013 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said
28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM
- 802 Views
that won't work on Buddists
28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM
- 951 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM*
28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM
- 472 Views
That's always been my view of the issue. Half-assed non-religious types are just as obnoxious too.
28/02/2012 10:34:12 PM
- 1166 Views
Seems a got both a pat on the back and a scathing rebuke. I call that a good day
28/02/2012 11:57:45 PM
- 1234 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM*
28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM
- 615 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist."
28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM
- 1096 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism.
29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM
- 1036 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but...
29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM
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What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born.
05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM
- 971 Views
So what do you call this position?:
05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM
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I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean.
05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
- 981 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous.
05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM
- 805 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not?
05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM
- 1032 Views
What's happening
05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM
- 1015 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition.
07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM
- 1321 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people?
07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM
- 919 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes.
11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM
- 794 Views
Whatever.
12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM
- 1236 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree."
13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM
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I have known very few people who "believe" their religion from rearing and actually understand it.
29/02/2012 12:08:01 PM
- 1163 Views
I thought that was "best way to make an atheist roll his/her eyes at you"? *NM*
29/02/2012 11:05:21 PM
- 565 Views