Active Users:1140 Time:23/11/2024 01:53:44 AM
As long as it is qualified, I have no objection. Joel Send a noteboard - 27/02/2012 11:09:04 PM
Of course, the idea that a person could both possess a rigid moral code and embrace diverse cultures and religions doesn't seem to even enter your mind. I know silent movies that display the world in less black and white terms than you.

This, I mean.

The idea that endorsing the concept of "some people juggle geese" is the equivalent of endorsing cannibalism and racism, etc., is ridiculous.

I firmly believe that some people juggle geese, and that's okay. But I don't think it's okay that some people oppress minorities or practice stoning for witchcraft or what have you. My philosophy is that anyone who does direct harm to others isn't a very good person, and that anyone who tries to avoid causing direct harm to others is probably okay at the end of the day, regardless of whether or not that person doesn't really like other sorts of people or doesn't really support gay marriage or likes to practice autoerotic asphyxiation in the comfort of his or her own home or wishes all those damn kids would get off the goddamn lawn.

For some, real actual people, who exist in great numbers, it is NOT qualified, but absolute, and that is both a problem and danger. It becomes a Boolean value where one must accept everything or nothing, and the fact and reasons we all disagree with that premise ought to illustrate WHY it is a problem and danger. Yet many people DO hold it; I did not make them up out of whole cloth, I recalled them from first hand experience. The sticking point is here:

To me, being accepting means not really minding that other people believe differently than me, but it does not mean looking the other way when someone causes harm to another. They are different buckets of sand, and I don't think you can say that the only way to stop the latter is to be an uncompromising prick.

As noted elsewhere, and as I am certain you know, tolerance=/=acceptance. It costs us nothing to tolerate people believing gay marriage wrong, but accepting that belief forces us to consider whether banning gay marriage is causes direct or "merely" indirect harm. We can avoid that whole issue by simply tolerating peoples disagreement without accepting it. Really, tolerating a belief is obviously a very different thing than ACCEPTING it.

We can tolerate people actively hating gays, wanting to harm them, but if we accept it with the restriction they not act on it we must constantly watch to ensure they do not violate that restriction, which they only tolerate without accepting. Rather than eroding or altering their hatred, that reinforces it with bitterness and resentment (hence the infamous and sometimes lethal "fagenda" accusations.) The moment we let down our guard and someone who hates gays thinks they can act on that hatred with impunity, they will pounce on the opportunity and their unfortunate victim. Often we do not even know whom to guard against, because accepting beliefs without accepting the actions they motivate only induces people to hide their hatred so we know not where it lurks and festers.

On the other hand, tolerating hatred without accepting it creates an opportunity for debate, and therefore dialogue, resulting in exchanged perspectives and reduced ignorance. That serves two goals: The dialogue reduces false and fearful beliefs that create hatred, and the inclusiveness reduces the alienation and isolation that nurture it. It is the difference between "separate but equal" and "equal protection under the law." Americas half century of the latter has been generally better for civil rights than its full century of the former.

I also think that assuming all or even most people who profess a belief in tolerance are actually just being smug and lazy and hypocritical, is itself sort of smug, lazy, and hypocritical. Like Ghav said, I don't think you could find very many people who seriously claim to believe in tolerance and at the same time say that cannibalism and stoning are A-okay.

I assumed nothing; I stated outright the real experiences I have had with real people holding that real position. I even dug up the Wikipedia article on moral relativism to cite two (arguably three) entire belief systems based on it. I assure you I did not just write it up (complete with its own citations) in the last five minutes. ;) I cannot say I wish I had made up, because that would be rather shameful, but I most certainly DID not invent it.
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For my fellow Grammar Nazis - 23/02/2012 07:12:33 PM 776 Views
I like that. *NM* - 23/02/2012 07:33:11 PM 204 Views
Nice. *NM* - 23/02/2012 07:46:08 PM 202 Views
Yes, indeed! *NM* - 23/02/2012 07:51:37 PM 205 Views
*NM* - 23/02/2012 11:30:41 PM 198 Views
I saw that several days ago. - 23/02/2012 11:59:32 PM 468 Views
We are going to need a bigger bumper. - 24/02/2012 05:33:44 PM 507 Views
lol intolerance *NM* - 24/02/2012 09:10:34 PM 193 Views
Not intolerance. - 24/02/2012 11:06:08 PM 640 Views
"Coexisting" = "no belief system?" - 25/02/2012 01:10:04 AM 405 Views
What? - 25/02/2012 11:46:12 AM 502 Views
"What?" indeed. - 25/02/2012 05:02:32 PM 530 Views
I apologize. I can't read that. *NM* - 25/02/2012 10:21:09 PM 247 Views
What can I say? Keeping it short and to the point was clearly not CONVEYING the point. - 27/02/2012 06:17:14 AM 455 Views
I feel bad about what I said before, so here it is: - 27/02/2012 12:43:54 PM 447 Views
Re: I feel bad about what I said before, so here it is: - 27/02/2012 03:24:45 PM 491 Views
Re: I feel bad about what I said before, so here it is: - 27/02/2012 08:40:16 PM 449 Views
Also, I'm done here. It doesn't matter if we agree, and these sorts of conversations are - 27/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 433 Views
Sorry, but is a matter of both principle and survival to me. - 27/02/2012 10:43:56 PM 435 Views
No hard feelings, - 28/02/2012 12:10:07 AM 499 Views
Cool. - 02/03/2012 05:27:23 AM 419 Views
lol strawman - 27/02/2012 11:01:32 AM 429 Views
I have known lots of people who believe that; some even realize they believe it. - 27/02/2012 02:31:48 PM 470 Views
lol false dichotomy - 27/02/2012 06:46:36 PM 565 Views
That's what I was going to say. - 27/02/2012 10:05:51 PM 416 Views
As long as it is qualified, I have no objection. - 27/02/2012 11:09:04 PM 565 Views
Dont quote Nietzsche. You dont understand him. *NM* - 27/02/2012 10:34:08 PM 192 Views
I understand him well enough. - 27/02/2012 11:10:21 PM 455 Views
He did not favor moral relativism and he very much railed against nihilism. *NM* - 27/02/2012 11:13:46 PM 207 Views
Meh and again I say, "meh." - 27/02/2012 11:50:35 PM 469 Views
Like I said. You don't understand Nietzsche *NM* - 27/02/2012 11:59:50 PM 288 Views
Like I said, meh. - 02/03/2012 09:31:43 AM 362 Views
Re: For my fellow Grammar Nazis - 29/02/2012 05:27:27 AM 476 Views
I feed my alot a special diet of alot pellets. - 02/03/2012 05:05:22 AM 487 Views
So this site is just the reposting of really old internet memes? *NM* - 02/03/2012 01:51:26 AM 225 Views

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