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I have met them, they are out there; they populate entire schools of philosophy. Joel Send a noteboard - 27/02/2012 10:34:16 PM
That is pretty much it, yeah, and I have met many people too proud of their tolerance to realize refusing to condemn anything means condoning everything.

Have you? Really? I don't know anyone who is willing to be that ... what? I can't even find a word for that philosophy. My entire reason for disagreeing with you is that I don't think that type of person exists in any kind of majority, And I can't figure out why you're acting as if it is a big enough part of this issue to be worth discussing. It feels like you're talking about some kind of nihilistic robot.

Yes, very nihilist; I believe both that philosophy and nihilism found its fullest expression in Nietzsche (or Crowley; what is "will to power" but a rationalization for "do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law?") I really had in mind more what Wikipedia et al. refer to as "Meta-ethical relativism," but we seem to be drifting toward what it refers to as "Normative relativism" (though the difference is, IMHO, mainly semantic; in practice they are indistinguishable, the bases just differ slightly.)
Normative relativism is the prescriptive or normative position that, because there is no universal moral standard by which to judge others, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others - even when it runs counter to our personal or cultural moral standards.[3] Most philosophers find that this position is incoherent, or at least that it is unclear how meta-ethical relativism can lead to 'ought' statements.

And of course, it CANNOT lead to "ought" statements, because, just as meta-ethical relativism takes "ought" off the table as non-existent, normative relativism removes it as existent, but unobtainable. Yeah, these beliefs are real, exist and have subscribers, even advocates. That last makes them dangerous, in the "dispute at every opportunity" sense rather than the "lock safely away" sense. Obviously, it is false to say everyone with a "Coexist" sticker or T-shirt belongs to that group. It is, however, pretty accurate to say everyone who belongs to that group likes the stickers and T-shirts, and for all the wrong reasons.

Intelligent rational ecumenicalism/multiculturalism must retake its philosophy from those harmful idiots as surely as Christianity must retake its from OTHER harmful idiots. It is an unenviable dual obligation for some, but goes with the territory. Just saying, "that's nice, Grand Dragon *pat pat*" is not living Christianity or tolerance.

Beliefs do NOT fall under the jurisdiction of law; perhaps ironically, I agree with those who say they should not. ACTIONS fall under legal jurisdiction, but negative harmful beliefs produce negative harmful acts. Knowing those acts will be prosecuted is cold comfort if I know the beliefs driving them will also be accepted, and thus flourish unchecked. I can and do TOLERATE those beliefs, but will never ACCEPT them, because they are not "just fine:" They are tolerable, and only to the extent they are restricted to consenting adults.

Beliefs do not, no. Choosing to act on them, yes, hence the comment about the law. And if someone chooses not to do or say something harmful (annoying, stupid, etc) to another, what difference does it make if they hold an "inferior" belief to you? They are still holding to a moral code that is best for society. That's the point!

If they choose not to act on harmful beliefs, that is an acceptable temporary compromise, but, so long as they do not advocate violence, I actually prefer they speak their mind. It is more honest (a virtue to cultivate) and tells us whom to dispute and reason with, not to mention in whose company we must be cautious. Simply muzzling their beliefs with group censure and ostracism, but no attempt to persuade them of others, both conceals the enduring problem and deepens the resentment, alienation and ignorance that created it. It is not them holding to a moral code, but us holding them to an increasingly unwelcome one, and only as long as we are watching. Dialogue is the only antidote to provincial ignorance, inclusiveness the only antidote to xenophobia.

I do not pretend to have regained the ability to state that case civilly and respectully, but strive for that goal, because it is vital. More so daily. :[

I will not impose my beliefs on those who do not share them, but will do all I legally can to change harmful beliefs. People can never be coerced to alter beliefs, but can and should be convinced and encouraged to alter destructive dangerous ones. I still tolerate both those beliefs and people who hold them, but have no duty to accept the beliefs; just the opposite, in fact. I tolerate racism just fine, but will never accept it, and will always discourage it by any just means available. Many people agree, but try to marry that to a moral relativism fatal to it, which I also oppose.

Nobody is saying you're obliged to accept them, Joel. Tolerance includes you. Btw, racism isn't one of the symbols on the sticker, so I'm not sure why we're on this topic. (again, my point - it's not about supporting EVERY effing thing people might believe.)

Tolerance=/=acceptance. When my dislocated shoulder refused to go back in its socket I tolerated the excruciating pain for an hour or two until a doctor could reinsert it, yet sought that doctor out with all haste because I did NOT accept it. But, yes, tolerance includes me; again, if all beliefs are "just fine" so long as the harmful ones are not enacted, which of my comments is debatable? "Nobody's wrong, if everybody's right," as it were.

It is not (or should not be) about supporting everything people might believe, but tolerating everything they might believe while trying to peacefully change harmful beliefs. The sticker does not use a "racism symbol" (is there such a thing?) but neither does it use exclusively religious ones; the peace symbol in the "o" signifies peace and, depending on whom one asks, the "e" signifies either both sexes or homosexuality. In practice, however, religion tends to be closely related to race, culture, sexuality and sex, and I have always understood the "coexist" stickers/shirts to advocate tolerance for each, and generally. More importantly, I would wager dollars to donuts the next person you see bearing the sign would agree; peace implies general tolerance (not necessarily acceptance, which, again, is my point.)

That is fine; universal tolerance is generally good. It encourages openness, honesty, dialogue and exchanging perspectives that break down ignorance and prejudice, thereby diminishing harmful beliefs that produce harmful acts. That is much better than accepting bigotry/brutality on the condition it remains non-violent and/or in the closet, where it festers and grows in clandestine resentment and unfamiliarity with others (apart from imagined fears of them.) That provides only the illusion of progress, but the reality is people working all day in fields alongside other races, then donning white robes at night to burn crosses on their lawns. That no one knows the next morning who strung the rope makes that more horrific rather than less, because even the law is often impotent. Tolerance can reduce, even eliminate such atrocities; acceptance simply perpetuates them covertly.
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Moral relativism
This message last edited by Joel on 27/02/2012 at 10:41:37 PM
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For my fellow Grammar Nazis - 23/02/2012 07:12:33 PM 777 Views
I like that. *NM* - 23/02/2012 07:33:11 PM 205 Views
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lol intolerance *NM* - 24/02/2012 09:10:34 PM 194 Views
Not intolerance. - 24/02/2012 11:06:08 PM 641 Views
"Coexisting" = "no belief system?" - 25/02/2012 01:10:04 AM 406 Views
What? - 25/02/2012 11:46:12 AM 503 Views
"What?" indeed. - 25/02/2012 05:02:32 PM 531 Views
I apologize. I can't read that. *NM* - 25/02/2012 10:21:09 PM 248 Views
What can I say? Keeping it short and to the point was clearly not CONVEYING the point. - 27/02/2012 06:17:14 AM 456 Views
I feel bad about what I said before, so here it is: - 27/02/2012 12:43:54 PM 448 Views
Re: I feel bad about what I said before, so here it is: - 27/02/2012 03:24:45 PM 492 Views
Re: I feel bad about what I said before, so here it is: - 27/02/2012 08:40:16 PM 450 Views
Also, I'm done here. It doesn't matter if we agree, and these sorts of conversations are - 27/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 434 Views
Sorry, but is a matter of both principle and survival to me. - 27/02/2012 10:43:56 PM 436 Views
No hard feelings, - 28/02/2012 12:10:07 AM 500 Views
Cool. - 02/03/2012 05:27:23 AM 419 Views
I have met them, they are out there; they populate entire schools of philosophy. - 27/02/2012 10:34:16 PM 669 Views
lol strawman - 27/02/2012 11:01:32 AM 430 Views
I have known lots of people who believe that; some even realize they believe it. - 27/02/2012 02:31:48 PM 470 Views
lol false dichotomy - 27/02/2012 06:46:36 PM 565 Views
That's what I was going to say. - 27/02/2012 10:05:51 PM 417 Views
As long as it is qualified, I have no objection. - 27/02/2012 11:09:04 PM 565 Views
Dont quote Nietzsche. You dont understand him. *NM* - 27/02/2012 10:34:08 PM 193 Views
I understand him well enough. - 27/02/2012 11:10:21 PM 455 Views
He did not favor moral relativism and he very much railed against nihilism. *NM* - 27/02/2012 11:13:46 PM 208 Views
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Like I said. You don't understand Nietzsche *NM* - 27/02/2012 11:59:50 PM 289 Views
Like I said, meh. - 02/03/2012 09:31:43 AM 363 Views
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So this site is just the reposting of really old internet memes? *NM* - 02/03/2012 01:51:26 AM 225 Views

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