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Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel Send a noteboard - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM
Common sense is just basic reason, and quite useful, ESPECIALLY for human behavior. It has limitations (e.g. complex dynamics, particularly with counterintuitive outcomes) but serves well if we recognize those limitations. Recognizing limitations of not just our knowledge but means of acquiring it is also useful. At the risk of a tangent, I cannot help wishing schools spent more time on division by zero so people do not forget it exists, or expect to define it "someday, when we know more."

In this case, we have conflicting data: One study of a large but incomplete group shows a positive correlation between contraception use and sexual activity, but another study of a large partially overlapping group shows a negative correlation. Absent additional studies, preferably of ALL people rather than just those with low incomes or in their teens, firm conclusions FROM DATA are impossible. However, FROM LOGIC, we can indisputably say increased contraception use in no way deters sex, which most people enjoy (though I do not have any data handy to support that "proposition.") Thus contraception can ONLY encourage sexual activity.

While increased contraception use significantly reduces the risk of pregnancy, and therefore a deterrent to sexual activity, I have not seen even a speculative suggestion of why it would encourage sexual activity, so it is hard to see how it could cause the reduced sexual activity in the study you cited. The most logical explanation is probably that promoting abstinence and other things styled as "oppression" actually HAVE increased teen abstinence, though increased awareness that contraception is imperfect may have been a factor also. That should not obscure the fact promoting abstinence remains an inadequate solution to teen pregnancy, because many teens will disregard it, and thus the proper use of birth control, along with its risks and limitations, should be taught in school health classes.

Since you have brought up mathematical analogies, the situation we have is: (effect of contraception on rates of sex ) ≥ 0. You are selecting only the "greater than" and ignoring the "or equal to."

Logic suggests that it might encourage sex, but absent hard evidence, that is only a suggestion, not a conclusion. Applying straight logic to human behavior, without strong grounding in evidence of one's initial assumptions, is tricky at the best of times.

Yes, I am selecting only "greater than," because "equal to" is no more a possibility than "less than." Contraception CANNOT DISCOURAGE sexual activity, and significantly reduces the chance of something that deters sexual activity so much it motivates entire national policies aimed at reducing sex. If contraception even marginally encourages even one person to have sex, it encourages overall sexual activity, because it cannot deter anyone. The only debate left is HOW MUCH greater than zero its effect on sexual activity is. Common sense, which definitely includes experience with humans, dictates that, but logic is sufficient. Nothing suggests contraception deters sex, nor that everyone with access to it discounts it as a factor in sexual activity (in practice, for various reasons, many otherwise consenting adults refuse sex without a condom.) Therefore, contraception must encourage sex, to an undetermined degree.

I suspect it depends on how one defines "miscarriage." Since preventing uterine implantation of fertilized eggs is a primary goal of IUDs, they SHOULD raise rates of "spontaneous abortion" as defined by those who believe life begins at conception: That is the POINT. If they do not, they are just uncomfortable placebos. What is critical is that is one small part of a "life begins at conception" article premised on promoting effective contraception. It is proof of pro-contraception members of even the strictest pro life factions, which makes categorically dismissing all pro lifers as anti-contraception unfair and inaccurate.

Actually, the primary mode of action for IUDs is preventing sperm from reaching the egg. Preventing fertilized eggs from implanting is a secondary effect.

"A primary effect." If we prefer to use "primary" to literally mean "first," then preventing implantation is a principle effect.

I have never categorically dismissed all "pro-lifers" as anti-contraception. I have always been talking about the movement, and the only significant counterexample that has been offered is Tim Ryan. I certainly appreciate knowing about him and his efforts, but his own story shows exactly what I was saying about the movement, i.e. those people and organizations which dedicate time and money to the issue.

The movement is very large, and almost inevitably diverse as a result. Very few people are completely apathetic about abortion; nearly everyone has at least some opinion one way or the other, and since the federal late term abortion law increased awareness in the late '90s polling has never shown less than 40% support for either side. Even at the lowest pro life ebb in Gallup polling, which was also at the lowest US population level in that polling, support was at 33% of 260 million, or 86 million Americans. I doubt there are 86 million anti-contraception Americans NOW, but polling says there are about TWICE that many pro lifers. You would be hard pressed to get all 160 million of them to agree even on what "pro life" means (nearly twice as many support restricted abortion as oppose/support it under ALL circumstances) let alone how they feel about contraception. I think I linked this at some earlier point, but just to be sure:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

"The movement" reads more as a collective than qualified statement. I am unconvinced even a majority of pro lifers are anti-contraception, and strongly doubt most of them are, though many must be since there are around 160 million total.

Ryans legislation earned many pro life critics; they do not necessarily represent "the movement at large." It is VERY "large," with widely disparate views, the point I (and nossy) have tried to convey. Just a couple days ago I saw a story about a pro life group assailed by far right pro lifers for promoting the anti-mercury campaign as "pro life." It basically went as one would expect; some critical pro life groups even took a moment to explicitly deny global warming along the way. Part of the problem is the sheer size of the pro life movement that not only creates great diversity, but attracts demagogues who care no more about fetuses than about babies, far less than they care about a way to rally millions to their far right agenda. This covers that well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1PUFNZgWD0

Exactly; the movement does not really care about fetuses or babies, but instead focuses on pushing other agendas under that guise. That is the point I have been making. I don't generally take the time while making that point to add "except for some small, ineffective faction" because, well, that faction is small and ineffective.

I guess linking Dave Lipman was asking for that, but my is a movements leadership, particularly a large movements, does not always fully reflect all member views. I would not call Paul Ryan "ineffective;" last I checked, the leadership of BOTH major parties hope he will be VERY effective this November.

In the main, I would argue pro-contraception pro lifers have a tremendous effect on the movement through votes, activists and funding. Various pundits claim that reality drove Obamas tactical decision to push for and then retreat on requiring Catholic hospitals and schools fund employee contraception. Personally, I still feel he can gain no sympathy fighting for something unless/until he actually FIGHTS for it, but the basic logic is valid. Barring large systemic polling errors, we must either accept that a near majority of America opposes contraception, or reject the premise most pro lifers do. They may not be a silent majority, but neither are they a trivially small minority.

Separate, but related. You led off mentioning the contention abortion is murder and the following sentence noted murder has moral precedence over birth control. Miscarriage was only referenced as a medical rather than legal concern ONCE, auxillary to the initial argument and preliminary reinforcing it by pointing out the rarity of "legislator[s]... trying to criminalize miscarriages." That was the second (and only other) mention of miscarriages, and even that was in the context of law, not medicine. So, yeah, if three of five sentences in a paragraph that begins and ends discussing law are also about law, and only one of the remaining two is about medicine, I am unlikely to conclude the paragraph is about a medical epidemic. Do I really need to explain how paragraphs work? I take it you remain unconvinced self-righteous condescension will not persuade pro lifers to alter their position. From what I can tell, you, I and nossy are in basic agreement on the legal and policy issues, but the reaction from pro choice people like us suggests your advocacy could use improvement.

I referred to legislators trying to criminalize miscarriages as to say "even on the rare occasions when the 'pro-life' movement considers miscarriage, they generally screw that up, too."

That remains a legal issue, not a medical one. The majority of your paragraph referenced law, not medicine, which was only referenced as such in a single sentence. If you intended a medical focus, you did not achieve it.

My intent is not to persuade "pro-lifers" to alter their positions, because I am not Sisyphus. People outside of the movement need to realize its illegitimacy and lack of relevant effort toward its stated cause, so that the national conversation can stop according it any measure of political respect.

The notion the movement and its members are unworthy of respect is precisely the problem. Ethically, that people deserve respect even when they disagree with us, even for fallacious reasons, is a cornerstone of liberalism, as in Voltaires statement that "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Pragmatically, if 51% of America identifies with one position, respecting them encourages them to respect us enough not to marginalize our minority. Politically, denying them respect because of their views and/or the basis on which those views are held only supports pro life claims pro choice advocates cheerfully devalue and then eliminate everyone whose existence is unwelcome.

People outside the movement by definition disagree with it, but the issue has never been and will never be decided on the basis of whether/when a majority believes a fetus is or is not an entity. The "critical masses" are the majority that believes a fetus an entity at various points prior to the third trimester, the critical issue how they believe that should be legally addressed. Beginning from the position they also oppose contraception due to provincial puritanical views of sex and therefore do not merit respect is a poor approach. It can only alienate them, and there is no better example of how counterproductive such alienation is than the support the pro choice position got when pro lifers started throwing around the phrase "baby-killer." Such an approach seems like it should be effective, but it backfires because the vast majority of people recognize it as specious slander against not only their friends, family and neighbors, but often against themselves.
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This message last edited by Joel on 19/02/2012 at 01:56:18 AM
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2193 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 1083 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 996 Views
I can understand it though. - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 1055 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 965 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 979 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 941 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 1027 Views
That is a little unfair. - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1236 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 1024 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 966 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 941 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 965 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 960 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 1000 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1103 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 1015 Views
Oh please. - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 980 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 856 Views
Quite a telling reply. - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 922 Views
Re: I quite agree. - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1127 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 966 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 988 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1225 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 1017 Views
You continue to miss the point. - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1108 Views
Well, yes. - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 1027 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 971 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1064 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 964 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 589 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 1054 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 965 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 799 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 967 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 948 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 1044 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1135 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 1002 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 1032 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1096 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 1011 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1310 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 965 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1224 Views
There are problems with the implants - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 990 Views
You have a talent for understatement. - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 975 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1125 Views
I agree. - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 907 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 974 Views
Right - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1025 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 973 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 881 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 963 Views
I know I'm not always clear. - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 966 Views
Just curious... - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 948 Views
Not at all. - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 1012 Views
Not at all? - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 902 Views
No. - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 864 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 956 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 954 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 917 Views
Ooor, the best. - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 900 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 588 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 534 Views
rabble rouser *NM* - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 551 Views
I misread this at first - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 959 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 2001 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 890 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 962 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 908 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 1032 Views
You don't know stuff. - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 995 Views
I know the stuff that matters. - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 897 Views
That's true. - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 987 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 1039 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 1049 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 1014 Views
Must be nice. *NM* - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 640 Views
Re: stuff - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 913 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 945 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 957 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 903 Views
Fair enough. - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 973 Views
They restored funding incidentally - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 891 Views
Unless I've missed it - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 979 Views
You must have missed it then - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 895 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 1047 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 923 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 957 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1147 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 978 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 945 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1091 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 897 Views
Truth - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 1002 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 893 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 1022 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 923 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 946 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 995 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 893 Views
Dude. - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 835 Views
Yo mama? - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 989 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 964 Views
Why would I not think that? - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 863 Views

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