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I think you're leaving out some important points. nossy Send a noteboard - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM
Abstinence-only "sex ed" doesn't work. Teenagers are going to have sex no matter what they're told by adults, so the choice is to give them good information or not. Giving them no information about birth control (or false information, as many abstinence-only programs have been found to do) just leaves them unprepared. That generally affects them through their adult years, as well.

I agree with this.

(Sexual consent laws are not nearly as uniform as you claim, either. Laws defining appropriate age ranges for sexual conduct for minors, e.g. it's okay for a 16-year-old to have sex with a 17-year-old but not a 40-year-old, are not uncommon. This is utterly tangential to the actual point, though.)

If the "pro-life" movement realistically wanted to eliminate abortion, they would fund research into improving things like Implanon so that everyone would get an implant when they turned X (12, 14, 16, whatever) and no one could get pregnant or get someone pregnant unintentionally. That is a solution that actually acknowledges reality and works within it. Railing against Planned Parenthood and "marching for life" are not solutions.

I agree with the basic premise. I discuss the other side below.

The "pro-life" movement ultimately stems from the feeling, generally religiously inspired, that pregnancy must be a necessary consequence of sex. The idea that we could separate the two is what most of the movement actually opposes.

Not most. Some vocal proponents, and in some cases, they are only against the types of birth control that release a fertilized embryo. We, of course, get parents who don't think someone else should be teaching their children the facts of life or providing birth control so they can experience them, but I know plenty of people (and have read quite a bit about it as well) who use and support some types of birth control while not believing women should be allowed the choice of abortion. It's the latter that makes someone specifically pro-life.

Women who have sex out of wedlock should be punished by having to carry the pregnancy to term. Those are the oppressive sexual mores to which I referred. (Interpreting that as "locking up your kids"-style oppression was not a high point of your reply.)

No, women who conceive shouldn't be able to end a life. That is what most pro-life proponents say. At one point, the majority may have believed what you say there, but it isn't that way any longer. Reality is starting to set in. If you could get any of our pro-life people to weigh in, I *think* they would say I'm correct.

So. There are more people against abortion who DO support birth control than there are who reject all of it. The problem really is that they feel that abortion is enough of a crime to negate the need for a place that provides that service. If PP stopped offering abortions and abortion counselling, they would have many more supporters. You cannot ignore that abortion is a strong enough "NO!" for some that it outweighs other positive factors (re: PP).

If they really felt that a single-celled zygote is morally equivalent to a person and abortion is murder, they would not act they way they do. Murder is a more important issue than birth control or teenage sex. Also, most pregnancies end in miscarriage, without the woman even knowing she was pregnant; a "pro-lifer" ought to see this as an epidemic. I have almost never encountered any who realize this, let alone try to do anything about it. (Every once in a while, some state legislator ends up trying to criminalize miscarriages, and quickly gets eaten alive in the public eye.)

You're simplifying it. In most cases, miscarriages are natural. As unfortunate as it is, people lose babies fairly often, and that is very different to deciding to end that life on purpose. Pro-lifers believe conception makes a baby, and that abortion is murder, but you'll never have a fair argument about it if you continue to believe that most pro-lifers are also against all bc. That is a decreasing statistic, and mainly remains because of the types of bc available - some release the fertilized egg (which, incidentally, is exactly why I agree with you re: birth control research).
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Susan G. Komen cuts funds to Planned Parenthood. (with updated edit) nossy - 02/02/2012 04:32:27 PM 2209 Views
The most annoying part is in the sixth paragraph- abortions are only a small part of their thing beetnemesis - 02/02/2012 05:08:07 PM 1098 Views
I agree. nossy - 02/02/2012 05:20:17 PM 1003 Views
I can understand it though. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 05:45:55 PM 1065 Views
I can too, it just isn't for me. nossy - 02/02/2012 05:58:33 PM 984 Views
Actually, there are longer-acting forms of birth control than the pill. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 12:37:42 AM 989 Views
I do think that preventing abortions is their primary goal. Sareitha Sedai - 03/02/2012 01:08:05 AM 954 Views
If they don't see that link, it's because they haven't looked. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 02:42:42 AM 1039 Views
That is a little unfair. Joel - 03/02/2012 12:48:46 PM 1249 Views
Won't someone please think of the children?! Dreaded Anomaly - 04/02/2012 05:03:27 AM 1034 Views
I think you're leaving out some important points. nossy - 04/02/2012 03:40:48 PM 979 Views
Ah, the good ol' silent majority. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/02/2012 07:32:29 PM 955 Views
So which moron is feeding you this crap? Ray - 04/02/2012 10:27:15 PM 973 Views
A zygote isn't a person, because it doesn't have a brain. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 12:33:29 AM 972 Views
It worries me when we think alike.... Joel - 05/02/2012 01:22:35 PM 1012 Views
Brain waves at 8 weeks are a myth. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 08:46:06 PM 1115 Views
"brain function... appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks' gestation." Joel - 05/02/2012 10:42:35 PM 1028 Views
Oh please. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 11:13:50 PM 997 Views
Re: Oh please yourself. Joel - 06/02/2012 09:15:26 PM 869 Views
Quite a telling reply. Dreaded Anomaly - 07/02/2012 04:38:20 AM 935 Views
Re: I quite agree. Joel - 08/02/2012 06:03:23 PM 1141 Views
You're taking an issue of objective facts and treating it like a day of playground gossip. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/02/2012 03:47:06 AM 976 Views
No, your source, in which there is very little that is objective, did that for me. Joel - 11/02/2012 02:59:45 AM 998 Views
I see you have continued to provide no factual arguments. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/02/2012 04:53:28 AM 1240 Views
I presented factual rebuttals. Joel - 19/02/2012 01:56:45 AM 1031 Views
You continue to miss the point. Dreaded Anomaly - 23/02/2012 10:22:24 PM 1119 Views
No, I got the point: You expect me to accept a heavily biased, partisan and combative "source." Joel - 07/03/2012 01:47:37 AM 1039 Views
The claim of brain waves at 8 weeks is still unsupported by evidence, i.e. a myth. Dreaded Anomaly - 15/03/2012 09:16:14 PM 1078 Views
Well, yes. nossy - 04/02/2012 11:14:47 PM 1040 Views
A silent majority may as well not exist, if it has no tangible effects. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 12:54:34 AM 982 Views
You ignoring it is not the same thing as it having no tangible effect. nossy - 05/02/2012 02:11:36 AM 1077 Views
Ignoring what? You haven't shown me anything solid. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 05:25:23 AM 976 Views
It's ok, we're done. *NM* nossy - 05/02/2012 09:29:05 AM 594 Views
Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. Joel - 04/02/2012 08:25:49 PM 1070 Views
Re: Since few people oppose ADULT contraception access, that might be wise in this case. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 02:11:28 AM 973 Views
If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Joel - 05/02/2012 08:42:17 AM 814 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Dreaded Anomaly - 05/02/2012 10:04:59 PM 981 Views
Re: If you are arguing most sex ed opponents are naïve/ignorant, I agree. Joel - 06/02/2012 08:57:38 PM 955 Views
I'm done discussing my use of the term "oppression." The Tim Ryan stuff is interesting, though. Dreaded Anomaly - 07/02/2012 05:37:05 AM 1055 Views
Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 08/02/2012 06:01:32 PM 1151 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/02/2012 05:30:58 AM 1017 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 11/02/2012 02:58:00 AM 1044 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/02/2012 04:29:08 AM 1109 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 19/02/2012 01:54:30 AM 1028 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 23/02/2012 10:59:32 PM 1324 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Joel - 07/03/2012 01:47:44 AM 987 Views
Re: Yet, regrettably, not done misusing it. Dreaded Anomaly - 15/03/2012 10:27:23 PM 1239 Views
There are problems with the implants LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 01:42:55 AM 1002 Views
Any form of birth control doesn't work for everyone, though. Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 02:37:00 AM 1028 Views
Oh yes, I totally agree! My point is just that there are some barriers to handing out implants *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 03:38:05 AM 472 Views
You have a talent for understatement. Joel - 03/02/2012 01:08:40 PM 991 Views
What on earth does that have to do with anything? Cannoli - 03/02/2012 01:47:42 AM 935 Views
I was actually kinda with you until you closed with that anathema I condemned in my response to rt. Joel - 03/02/2012 01:39:06 PM 964 Views
I agree that they have made Beast Cancer a cult but splitting with PP is just smart Ray - 02/02/2012 05:39:49 PM 1137 Views
I agree. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 06:00:17 PM 921 Views
yes she is going to have to piss off one group or the other Ray - 02/02/2012 06:12:31 PM 987 Views
Right nossy - 02/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1037 Views
it is a judgment call and I hope her decision is based on more than my guesses Ray - 02/02/2012 06:53:50 PM 910 Views
Do you see a way Komen could have avoided pissing off one side? Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 06:55:36 PM 985 Views
No, I don't. I don't believe I said that? nossy - 02/02/2012 07:53:50 PM 895 Views
You didn't; I inferred it from the way you phrased that ("if she HAS to..."). Sorry. Sareitha Sedai - 02/02/2012 08:06:11 PM 975 Views
I know I'm not always clear. nossy - 02/02/2012 08:32:47 PM 979 Views
Just curious... Narg - 02/02/2012 10:07:49 PM 959 Views
Not at all. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:24:19 PM 1027 Views
Not at all? Narg - 02/02/2012 10:32:31 PM 919 Views
No. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:47:04 PM 873 Views
My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes Ray - 02/02/2012 11:17:24 PM 972 Views
Re: My argument is based on my belief that the pro-choice women are more dedicated to women's causes nossy - 03/02/2012 12:08:01 AM 969 Views
wow that may be the worst advice I had in weeks Ray - 03/02/2012 12:13:18 AM 937 Views
Ooor, the best. nossy - 03/02/2012 12:25:56 AM 911 Views
ok now you are just being mean *NM* Ray - 03/02/2012 12:46:12 AM 592 Views
The thread was going too well - I thought we needed the meanness. *NM* nossy - 03/02/2012 11:30:39 AM 540 Views
rabble rouser *NM* Ray - 04/02/2012 04:24:01 AM 556 Views
I misread this at first Sareitha Sedai - 03/02/2012 12:51:44 AM 974 Views
not to mention codeine seems to make me double post Ray - 02/02/2012 11:17:26 PM 2017 Views
I'm not so sure I agree. Or not completely. nossy - 02/02/2012 06:14:11 PM 907 Views
I don't diagree with the way you see it Ray - 02/02/2012 06:39:41 PM 971 Views
More inevitable than anything, considering who started Komen. Joel - 02/02/2012 10:19:34 PM 923 Views
Never having heard of any of those except PP, my opinion may not be the most relevant... Legolas - 02/02/2012 08:32:48 PM 1040 Views
You don't know stuff. nossy - 02/02/2012 08:43:38 PM 1005 Views
I know the stuff that matters. Legolas - 02/02/2012 09:55:08 PM 911 Views
That's true. nossy - 02/02/2012 10:34:32 PM 1002 Views
they may also be a afraid that PP will go the way of ACORN Ray - 02/02/2012 11:04:16 PM 1052 Views
"Accused" of = unfounded slander. Aeryn - 03/02/2012 12:13:30 AM 1067 Views
did you notice I called tactic disgusting? That doesn't mean it isn't effective Ray - 03/02/2012 12:45:10 AM 996 Views
The investigation by Congress is well-known to be specious. It's the House GOP abusing their power. *NM* Dreaded Anomaly - 03/02/2012 12:41:58 AM 649 Views
This is so foreign a debate for me Lews_TherinThelamon - 02/02/2012 10:16:15 PM 1024 Views
Must be nice. *NM* nossy - 03/02/2012 12:26:49 AM 644 Views
Re: stuff rebelaessedai - 03/02/2012 09:18:53 AM 922 Views
I'm sorry, but what're we talking about when we're talking about "cancer" LadyLorraine - 03/02/2012 12:49:34 PM 955 Views
Obviously not adenocarcinoma, no. rebelaessedai - 04/02/2012 07:36:06 AM 968 Views
I"m not that fussed. I'm just generally leary of research that has results like that LadyLorraine - 04/02/2012 08:35:04 PM 915 Views
Fair enough. rebelaessedai - 04/02/2012 10:17:31 PM 982 Views
Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense. Joel - 02/02/2012 10:54:34 PM 1003 Views
Re: Once I looked up Nancy Brinker at Wikipedia it all made sense. nossy - 02/02/2012 11:03:32 PM 932 Views
After a little more digging I have to say you are probably right. Joel - 03/02/2012 02:23:14 AM 867 Views
They restored funding incidentally Isaac - 03/02/2012 05:43:47 PM 907 Views
Unless I've missed it nossy - 03/02/2012 05:56:15 PM 990 Views
You must have missed it then Isaac - 03/02/2012 07:07:13 PM 907 Views
If you're referring to Cannoli nossy - 03/02/2012 07:19:25 PM 1061 Views
Multiple was not an accidental choice of words Isaac - 03/02/2012 11:46:30 PM 937 Views
Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. nossy - 04/02/2012 12:41:42 AM 973 Views
Re: Then I agree that maybe this is not the thread for you. Isaac - 04/02/2012 01:53:25 AM 1162 Views
Well, I'll try again for both of us. nossy - 04/02/2012 02:56:42 PM 994 Views
Re: Well, I'll try again for both of us. Isaac - 04/02/2012 07:40:25 PM 963 Views
well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision random thoughts - 03/02/2012 06:24:14 PM 1101 Views
Re: well at least there will not be any doubt about this being a political decision Isaac - 03/02/2012 06:29:34 PM 883 Views
I think that ship sailed long ago. Joel - 03/02/2012 08:45:13 PM 910 Views
Truth Dannymac - 04/02/2012 02:07:20 AM 1017 Views
I do wonder a bit which lawmakers Fox thinks "pressured" Komen. Joel - 03/02/2012 08:29:50 PM 906 Views
Beyond the 26 senators, I'd imagine rumor of the more reliable sort Isaac - 03/02/2012 08:46:31 PM 970 Views
Well, if they wrote AS senators rather than friends of Nancy Brinker, that probably qualifies. Joel - 03/02/2012 10:24:11 PM 1025 Views
Judge for yourself Isaac - 04/02/2012 12:01:06 AM 1036 Views
Well, a public letter makes whether they signed it "Sen. so-and-so" irrelevant: It is political. Joel - 04/02/2012 04:07:20 PM 956 Views
are you trying to disprove the study you posted? random thoughts - 03/02/2012 09:20:12 PM 1034 Views
To me, it depends on the nature of the contact, which I have not dug enough to discover. Joel - 03/02/2012 10:43:45 PM 935 Views
you admit you have no incite into what happened Ray - 04/02/2012 04:27:17 AM 957 Views
Actually, it looks like Komens new VP (and former GOP GA gubernatorial candidate) had the incite. Joel - 04/02/2012 04:24:14 PM 1007 Views
educated guess don't work when you are tinfoil hat wearing kool-aid drinker Ray - 04/02/2012 09:33:49 PM 907 Views
Dude. nossy - 04/02/2012 11:20:49 PM 844 Views
Yo mama? Joel - 05/02/2012 05:32:11 AM 998 Views
whhhhhhyyyyyy nossy - 04/02/2012 11:23:58 PM 978 Views
Why would I not think that? Joel - 05/02/2012 05:46:15 AM 873 Views
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