"As a disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I'm a sysadmin."
Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2012 12:47:16 PM
Thank goodness for objective analysis.
Off the bat, that the AG and/or copyright holders would need a court order to get a site to remove links to other sites guilty of copyright infringement kinda blows up the whole "no judicial review" argument. I am not a lawyer either, but believe court orders must be issued by a court.
I am really not seeing the problem here, apart from the "measurable burden" (I would be curious to know what metric they use) that is probably about equal to the burden of making sure no one links to kiddie porn. Beyond that the critical issue is free and open discussion of ANYTHING. That is not even a good ideal, but it has never existed on the internet anyway, so the point is moot. Setting aside things like how fast I would be sitebanned for linking to porn, it has only been a few months since the US blew up a guy in his car for using the internet to teach people to make and plant bombs, as well as to recruit and indoctrinate terrorists. FBI agents routinely pose as minors online to entrap chatroom pedophiles. It is ALREADY not possible to discuss anything and everything online, and insisting it should be ignores both that reality and the compelling reasons for it; it is NOT a winning argument.
Yeah, see, that is kinda the problem, and why Congress is considering legislation to impose criminal penalties (i.e. prison terms) on people who flip civil laws the bird and casually circumvent existing internet barriers to piracy. As to "the internet in the US will have entered the realm of federal regulation and censorship"... wow, and people say I am uninformed on the issue. Again, the US has been regulating internet content in the US literally since the internet was created by the Defense Department four decades ago, so I do not see what is so earth shatteringly shocking about that. But, yes, the US government is going to regulate the internet; that inevitability is what these bills are about. NOTHING on Earth will prevent that regulation, because it is increasingly needed; the responsible and constructive approach for netizens is to get out in front of that legislation and assume the role in designing it to which they (rightly) feel entitled. That is pretty much what the various industry interests are doing, and demanding NO new legislation be passed is a naïve and unrealistic approach that merely cedes those interests sole control over what the inevitable new law will dictate.
THAT is the kind of constructive feedback Obama requested, and anyone who wants that is better served by copying and pasting it into an email to the White House and their Representative and Senators than by all caps rants insisting NO legislation be enacted. Because guess which approach will be dismissed out of hand?
I hope Americans get busy reading up on this very soon and take the according steps like call their congressman that they won't stand for support of this.
Off the bat, that the AG and/or copyright holders would need a court order to get a site to remove links to other sites guilty of copyright infringement kinda blows up the whole "no judicial review" argument. I am not a lawyer either, but believe court orders must be issued by a court.
If the Attorney General served reddit with an order to remove links to a domain, we would be required to scrub every post and comment on the site containing the domain and censor the links out, even if the specific link contained no infringing content. We would also need to implement a system to automatically censor the domain from any future posts or comments. This places a measurable burden upon the site's technical infrastructure. It also damages one of the most important tenets of reddit, and the internet as a whole – free and open discussion about whatever the fuck you want.
I am really not seeing the problem here, apart from the "measurable burden" (I would be curious to know what metric they use) that is probably about equal to the burden of making sure no one links to kiddie porn. Beyond that the critical issue is free and open discussion of ANYTHING. That is not even a good ideal, but it has never existed on the internet anyway, so the point is moot. Setting aside things like how fast I would be sitebanned for linking to porn, it has only been a few months since the US blew up a guy in his car for using the internet to teach people to make and plant bombs, as well as to recruit and indoctrinate terrorists. FBI agents routinely pose as minors online to entrap chatroom pedophiles. It is ALREADY not possible to discuss anything and everything online, and insisting it should be ignores both that reality and the compelling reasons for it; it is NOT a winning argument.
Why this doesn't actually stop piracy
This legislation is aimed at requiring private U.S. entities to enforce restrictions against foreign sites but does nothing against the infringement itself. All of the enforcement actions can and will be worked around by sites focused on copyright infringement. U.S. citizens will still be able to use foreign DNS servers, new advertising and payment networks will pop up overseas, and "infringing sites" will still be linked to by other foreign sites and search engines. In fact, tools used to circumvent these forms of internet restrictions are being funded by the U.S. State department to offer citizens under "repressive regimes" uncensored access to the internet. When the dust settles, piracy will still exist, and the internet in the U.S. will have entered the realm of federal regulation and censorship.
This legislation is aimed at requiring private U.S. entities to enforce restrictions against foreign sites but does nothing against the infringement itself. All of the enforcement actions can and will be worked around by sites focused on copyright infringement. U.S. citizens will still be able to use foreign DNS servers, new advertising and payment networks will pop up overseas, and "infringing sites" will still be linked to by other foreign sites and search engines. In fact, tools used to circumvent these forms of internet restrictions are being funded by the U.S. State department to offer citizens under "repressive regimes" uncensored access to the internet. When the dust settles, piracy will still exist, and the internet in the U.S. will have entered the realm of federal regulation and censorship.
Yeah, see, that is kinda the problem, and why Congress is considering legislation to impose criminal penalties (i.e. prison terms) on people who flip civil laws the bird and casually circumvent existing internet barriers to piracy. As to "the internet in the US will have entered the realm of federal regulation and censorship"... wow, and people say I am uninformed on the issue. Again, the US has been regulating internet content in the US literally since the internet was created by the Defense Department four decades ago, so I do not see what is so earth shatteringly shocking about that. But, yes, the US government is going to regulate the internet; that inevitability is what these bills are about. NOTHING on Earth will prevent that regulation, because it is increasingly needed; the responsible and constructive approach for netizens is to get out in front of that legislation and assume the role in designing it to which they (rightly) feel entitled. That is pretty much what the various industry interests are doing, and demanding NO new legislation be passed is a naïve and unrealistic approach that merely cedes those interests sole control over what the inevitable new law will dictate.
Why this is ripe for abuse
The vague and technology-ignorant language in this pending legislation opens a huge number of doors for different interpretations. When you take this broad language and use it to grant powers to both the Attorney General and plaintiffs like the MPAA and RIAA, you create a system that is begging to be abused. Given the history of abuse of laws like the DMCA, it has become obvious that institutions like the RIAA can and will stretch laws to the breaking point, often while suffering no repercussions.
To prevent a repeat in history of the abuse of internet copyright law, any new legislation must be drafted with the following:
1. Airtight, technically sound definitions.
2. Heavy input from the technology sector. Complex technology legislation should not be drafted by someone who barely has a working knowledge of the internet.
3. Checks and balances ensuring that due-process can be invoked before, during, and after any action is taken.
4. Clear repercussions for entities utilizing the legislation in an abusive manner.
The vague and technology-ignorant language in this pending legislation opens a huge number of doors for different interpretations. When you take this broad language and use it to grant powers to both the Attorney General and plaintiffs like the MPAA and RIAA, you create a system that is begging to be abused. Given the history of abuse of laws like the DMCA, it has become obvious that institutions like the RIAA can and will stretch laws to the breaking point, often while suffering no repercussions.
To prevent a repeat in history of the abuse of internet copyright law, any new legislation must be drafted with the following:
1. Airtight, technically sound definitions.
2. Heavy input from the technology sector. Complex technology legislation should not be drafted by someone who barely has a working knowledge of the internet.
3. Checks and balances ensuring that due-process can be invoked before, during, and after any action is taken.
4. Clear repercussions for entities utilizing the legislation in an abusive manner.
THAT is the kind of constructive feedback Obama requested, and anyone who wants that is better served by copying and pasting it into an email to the White House and their Representative and Senators than by all caps rants insisting NO legislation be enacted. Because guess which approach will be dismissed out of hand?
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
English Wikipedia Anti-SOPA Blackout
17/01/2012 08:31:46 AM
- 2101 Views
Yeah, man, because currently copyright holders have no recourse, am I right?
17/01/2012 11:47:35 AM
- 935 Views
"altering the infrastructure of the Internet so as to render RAFO virtually inaccessible"?
17/01/2012 08:12:27 PM
- 1038 Views
I'll go ahead and ask before I get my panties in a bunch: do you understand these bills?
17/01/2012 09:09:22 PM
- 1130 Views
I admit I have not looked into it much
17/01/2012 11:42:30 PM
- 986 Views
And yet you're still arguing the matter.
18/01/2012 02:34:04 AM
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I love you. *NM*
18/01/2012 03:41:03 AM
- 631 Views
heh, thanks. I usually find myself pushing minority opinions. Nice to be "appreciated" for once. *NM*
18/01/2012 04:01:10 AM
- 618 Views
Can i second the adulation?
18/01/2012 04:07:17 AM
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I too (three?) appreciate the common sense and reasonable explanations. *NM*
18/01/2012 04:12:59 AM
- 616 Views
Right, because the argument is not just over THIS bill but, apparently, over ANY bill.
18/01/2012 11:09:13 AM
- 987 Views
Alternatives to SOPA/PIPA have been proposed for months now. Please stop arguing this.
18/01/2012 05:42:10 PM
- 940 Views
Also, in the case of the OPEN Act, it has not "been proposed for months."
18/01/2012 07:28:15 PM
- 1406 Views
"sensitive federal content"? Provide a source justifying this claim and it's relevance, please.
18/01/2012 05:59:47 PM
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I would not have thought a source necessary.
18/01/2012 06:24:44 PM
- 1000 Views
Okay, I'm with Aemon now.
18/01/2012 07:36:21 PM
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OK.
18/01/2012 10:16:16 PM
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should be interesting
17/01/2012 12:41:47 PM
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Could be; depends on a lot of factors.
17/01/2012 07:38:55 PM
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See, that's one of the biggest problems that people aren't understanding.
17/01/2012 09:31:38 PM
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So tell them that.
17/01/2012 11:54:19 PM
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Joel, I think I'm done with this unless you want to do some research.
18/01/2012 02:53:19 AM
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Research would tell me what is wrong with these bills and how a good bill should look.
18/01/2012 11:22:46 AM
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Could've done without the snide rejoinder, but, good.
17/01/2012 02:20:08 PM
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I love the black banner, like some kind of internet Holocaust.
17/01/2012 08:03:27 PM
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Are you aware that SOPA/PIPA has nothing to do with hackers and everything to do with copyright?
18/01/2012 02:08:56 AM
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There seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 01:08:22 PM
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Re: There seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 08:13:15 PM
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Re: There still seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 10:27:32 PM
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Re: There still seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 11:30:39 PM
- 959 Views
Just because the news does not mention something does not automatically make it non-applicable.
19/01/2012 04:08:58 PM
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Re: Just because the news does not mention something does not automatically make it non-applicable.
19/01/2012 10:39:40 PM
- 959 Views
If you re-read your last sentence it should be clear why this law is being pushed.
20/01/2012 09:12:29 PM
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Re: If you re-read your last sentence it should be clear why this law is being pushed.
21/01/2012 03:19:49 AM
- 866 Views
Er, what Ghav said.
18/01/2012 02:30:37 AM
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Sorry, protecting Pirate Bay and offshore gambling are not compelling counterarguments.
18/01/2012 11:38:08 AM
- 911 Views
Okay, another analogy:
18/01/2012 02:04:12 PM
- 896 Views
The devil is always in the details, and it seems clear the details need great revision.
18/01/2012 03:31:20 PM
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what they SHOULD do is stop taking money from proponents of sopa/pipa
18/01/2012 03:51:09 PM
- 1015 Views
Yes, they should, but, once again, that approach will not prevent a new law.
18/01/2012 04:05:02 PM
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Re: The devil is always in the details, and it seems clear the details need great revision.
18/01/2012 04:27:30 PM
- 940 Views
If the US government wants to summarily block sites within the US, it already can and will.
18/01/2012 06:15:53 PM
- 891 Views
You know all this anti-SOPA bullshit is making me hope the bill passes.
18/01/2012 04:00:17 AM
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I would not go THAT far; it seems clear these bills have many objectionable provisions.
18/01/2012 11:41:23 AM
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Re: I would not go THAT far; it seems clear these bills have many objectionable provisions.
19/01/2012 01:57:46 AM
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Yeah, the extreme bias on both sides is why the bills will likely pass more or less as written.
19/01/2012 03:31:52 PM
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joel, you need to consider three things
18/01/2012 06:06:16 AM
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You need to consider that they WILL pass some legislation, and what you want it to contain.
18/01/2012 12:15:38 PM
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again, it's not about piracy, it's about protecting the mpaa/riaa business model at our expense
18/01/2012 03:34:32 PM
- 1072 Views
Yeah, see, that is the problem: "it's not about piracy."
18/01/2012 03:57:55 PM
- 910 Views
if piracy is such a problem then the mpaa/riaa need to PROVE their losses
19/01/2012 02:43:31 AM
- 930 Views
How do you expect anyone to prove what people WOULD HAVE bought if they could not just take it?
19/01/2012 03:57:24 PM
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A technical examination of SOPA and PROTECT IP
18/01/2012 08:32:44 AM
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"As a disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I'm a sysadmin."
18/01/2012 12:47:16 PM
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Wikipedia has already convinced me
18/01/2012 03:26:01 PM
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Trying to stop this legislation without proposing an alternative is trying to stop ANY legislation.
18/01/2012 03:44:18 PM
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It isn't their job to propose legislation
18/01/2012 04:12:53 PM
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No, but they have as much RIGHT to do so as anyone else.
18/01/2012 05:31:55 PM
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Strike three.
18/01/2012 05:37:55 PM
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That is fine; that is what people SHOULD be doing.
18/01/2012 06:03:59 PM
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Things being better now than they would be under SOPA seems like a legitimate argument to me
18/01/2012 09:04:18 PM
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Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no.
18/01/2012 10:46:48 PM
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About "proposing new legislation"
18/01/2012 04:45:08 PM
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So true
18/01/2012 05:08:45 PM
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Re: About "proposing new legislation"
18/01/2012 05:59:55 PM
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Hm, you should read my post one above about combatting online piracy.
18/01/2012 06:20:16 PM
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I would not recommend photocopying a book and handing it out on street corners.
18/01/2012 06:45:52 PM
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Not to blame, neccessarily. But you have to live in the real world.
18/01/2012 07:31:18 PM
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Re: Not to blame, neccessarily. But you have to live in the real world.
18/01/2012 08:55:59 PM
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I always liked the codewheels SSI provided with copies of their Gold Box AD&D games.
18/01/2012 10:07:40 PM
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These are really different arguments
19/01/2012 12:05:10 AM
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TV is slightly different, because regional availability becomes a factor.
19/01/2012 04:18:58 PM
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Yeah, so I use Russian wikipedia for a day. Or German wikipedia, or French, or Italian... *NM*
18/01/2012 06:23:36 PM
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Or just hit stop right before the script runs. *NM*
18/01/2012 06:52:40 PM
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Or just disable Java. *NM*
19/01/2012 01:58:03 AM
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That's not as much fun though. *NM*
19/01/2012 02:13:44 AM
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Exactly, this way its kind of a game. *NM*
19/01/2012 02:20:37 AM
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I really don't see the fun in that. Wikipedia is just a tool, not a game. *NM*
19/01/2012 04:59:14 AM
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I don't know about those (except French), but none of the ones I ever used are remotely as good. *NM*
18/01/2012 08:13:47 PM
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Russian wikipedia is very good if you're not checking some obscure Western cultural phenomena.
19/01/2012 01:57:43 AM
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Or Answers.com, or even the actual sources that are often copy/pasted into Wikipedia...
19/01/2012 01:07:38 AM
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Re: Or Answers.com, or even the actual sources that are often copy/pasted into Wikipedia... *NM*
19/01/2012 01:34:46 AM
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Oh, no; now Congress will be inundated with complaints from lazy college students!
19/01/2012 04:40:12 PM
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13 previously unopposed senators now do not support SOPA.
19/01/2012 11:36:15 PM
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How does that "rebutt" what was a facetious post in the first place?
20/01/2012 09:24:27 PM
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