You need to consider that they WILL pass some legislation, and what you want it to contain.
Joel Send a noteboard - 18/01/2012 12:15:38 PM
1. sopa/pipa is going to change copyright infringement from what is currently a civil infraction, punishable by a maximum penalty of $150k (US) for the worst infringements into a felony with a jail term of 5 years. plus, they are changing the definition of what is meant by infringement to include sites which offer streaming services such as youtube, hulu, etc. this is not sustainable and impractical to properly police.
OK, so tell Congress and the White House what is wrong with that, and propose a superior alternative. In that particular case, there is a good argument existing penalties are sufficient and no new law necessary. However, as noted above, when people (as so many do) argue already illegal activities should not BE illegal, and therefore NO penalty is appropriate, they have as much credibility and attention from the federal government as people arguing the same thing about recreational drugs. And about as much hope of success.
2. if the DNS provisions pass (which thankfully it looks like they won't -- yet), the internet as we know it will cease to exist and be replaced by the internet as brought to you by rupert murdoch, the mpaa/riaa, and the current US attorney general. if one of the groups involved in writing this bill gets their way, you won't be able to go to websites they don't want you to see, end of story. the attorney general has the power to pull the DNS for any website he/she deems to be infringing. how long before this power extends to websites he/she does not want the public to see? tell me you think the government will restrain itself with such power at its disposal?
Correct me if I am wrong, but does the government not already have that POWER and AUTHORITY? Are we not talking about legislation that simply expaning the basis on which both can be USED without violating US law? It certainly SOUNDS like the bills under consideration would just streamline the process whereby commerical entities can get government to take down a site for alleged copyright infringement. In terms of government abusing regulatory power, denying all access to sites with content it does not want people to see: It could do that now, yet there is little evidence it does, so I do not see why these bills would change that.
3. the DNS provisions will essentially do the same thing as malware that redirects your search results to malicious websites. only this time, the redirection is controlled by the federal government by the attorney general's command. this is almost exactly bringing the "great firewall of china" to the US. and all because hollywood is trying to pretend they're missing out on all this money. money which they have never statistically proven they are actually missing out on, and money which for some reason hasn't stopped them from posting substantial profits every year. ask yourself why the US government is protecting the business model of this industry, and what purpose the government has for propping up the industry in such a way.
Wait, I am confused: People keep keep saying these bills would "fundamentally alter the internets infrastructure," but you seem to be saying the most populous country on Earth ALREADY engages in the most restrictive practice contained in these bills. It sounds like another case where the government would not gain a new power, but simply EXERCISE an existing one far more often and broadly, on behalf of a lot more commerical interests.
the whole thing is beyond "hackers/pirates versus law abiding citizens". the whole thing is literally going to destroy the internet as we currently know it and put the absolute control of how the internet works into the attorney general's hands forever. you really need to read up on (a) the contents of sopa/pipa and (b) how DNS works, specifically how DNS "poisoning" works. then come back and re-read your replies in this thread and see how wrong you are.
The whole thing SHOULD be beyond "hackers/pirates versus law abiding citizens" but as long as it is reduced to big commercial lobbies pushing draconian legislation versus hackers advocating cyberanarchy, it will not be. In that debate, guess whom the government will support every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
As far as "changing the internet as we know it," well, it would hardly be the first time. Really, the amount of international public in/output to what is essentially a 40 year old DARPA project is staggering, and huge evidence Big Brother will not arbitrarily trample on the rights of netizens who owe their landscape to it. Yet change is coming, as surely as you no longer plug your phone into a modem and dial up your favorite BBS at a lightning fast 1200 baud rate to read the text only content. The internet has changed many times since we were born, is a lot bigger than even fifteen years ago, and governments regulatory presence WILL change to reflect that. The reasonable and responsible course for anyone concerned by that is to clearly and specifically state the forms they want the presence to take, not demand the government "stay out of" an internet it created, over which it has always retained authority within its borders and that only subsists by government sufferance.
You cannot prevent new legislation; all you can do is control the form it takes. Attempts at the former merely sacrifice all opportunity for the latter. Demanding NO new legislation, that access to and dissemination of copyrighted material be legal, inevitably associates oneself with the wild eyed enarchist hackers demanding the same. Congress and Obama will ignore such demands, as they should, so the best--the ONLY--way to get a better bill than the ones on the table is to submit CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. If these bills suck, write a better one.
Remember during the debate over Hillarycare, when Phil Graham got a scale from the GAO, slammed down the 20 lb. 2000 page Presidential Healthcare Plan in the well of the Senate and said, "THIS is the Presidents plan"? Remember George Mitchell removing the bill, slamming down the empty scale and saying, "THIS is the Republicans plan"? That is kinda where we are right now; the difference is that this time big business SUPPORTS the current legislation. Congress will ultimately pass and Obama sign what they consider the best legislation available, because "the perfect is the enemy of the good."
Give them a better option, or accept the one they are considering. Those are the sum total of YOUR options.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 18/01/2012 at 12:18:45 PM
English Wikipedia Anti-SOPA Blackout
17/01/2012 08:31:46 AM
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Yeah, man, because currently copyright holders have no recourse, am I right?
17/01/2012 11:47:35 AM
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"altering the infrastructure of the Internet so as to render RAFO virtually inaccessible"?
17/01/2012 08:12:27 PM
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I'll go ahead and ask before I get my panties in a bunch: do you understand these bills?
17/01/2012 09:09:22 PM
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I admit I have not looked into it much
17/01/2012 11:42:30 PM
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And yet you're still arguing the matter.
18/01/2012 02:34:04 AM
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I love you. *NM*
18/01/2012 03:41:03 AM
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heh, thanks. I usually find myself pushing minority opinions. Nice to be "appreciated" for once. *NM*
18/01/2012 04:01:10 AM
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Can i second the adulation?
18/01/2012 04:07:17 AM
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I too (three?) appreciate the common sense and reasonable explanations. *NM*
18/01/2012 04:12:59 AM
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Right, because the argument is not just over THIS bill but, apparently, over ANY bill.
18/01/2012 11:09:13 AM
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Alternatives to SOPA/PIPA have been proposed for months now. Please stop arguing this.
18/01/2012 05:42:10 PM
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Also, in the case of the OPEN Act, it has not "been proposed for months."
18/01/2012 07:28:15 PM
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"sensitive federal content"? Provide a source justifying this claim and it's relevance, please.
18/01/2012 05:59:47 PM
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I would not have thought a source necessary.
18/01/2012 06:24:44 PM
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Okay, I'm with Aemon now.
18/01/2012 07:36:21 PM
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OK.
18/01/2012 10:16:16 PM
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should be interesting
17/01/2012 12:41:47 PM
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Could be; depends on a lot of factors.
17/01/2012 07:38:55 PM
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See, that's one of the biggest problems that people aren't understanding.
17/01/2012 09:31:38 PM
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So tell them that.
17/01/2012 11:54:19 PM
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Joel, I think I'm done with this unless you want to do some research.
18/01/2012 02:53:19 AM
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Research would tell me what is wrong with these bills and how a good bill should look.
18/01/2012 11:22:46 AM
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Could've done without the snide rejoinder, but, good.
17/01/2012 02:20:08 PM
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I love the black banner, like some kind of internet Holocaust.
17/01/2012 08:03:27 PM
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Are you aware that SOPA/PIPA has nothing to do with hackers and everything to do with copyright?
18/01/2012 02:08:56 AM
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There seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 01:08:22 PM
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Re: There seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 08:13:15 PM
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Re: There still seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 10:27:32 PM
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Re: There still seems to be some overlap.
18/01/2012 11:30:39 PM
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Just because the news does not mention something does not automatically make it non-applicable.
19/01/2012 04:08:58 PM
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Re: Just because the news does not mention something does not automatically make it non-applicable.
19/01/2012 10:39:40 PM
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If you re-read your last sentence it should be clear why this law is being pushed.
20/01/2012 09:12:29 PM
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Re: If you re-read your last sentence it should be clear why this law is being pushed.
21/01/2012 03:19:49 AM
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Er, what Ghav said.
18/01/2012 02:30:37 AM
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Sorry, protecting Pirate Bay and offshore gambling are not compelling counterarguments.
18/01/2012 11:38:08 AM
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Okay, another analogy:
18/01/2012 02:04:12 PM
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The devil is always in the details, and it seems clear the details need great revision.
18/01/2012 03:31:20 PM
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what they SHOULD do is stop taking money from proponents of sopa/pipa
18/01/2012 03:51:09 PM
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Yes, they should, but, once again, that approach will not prevent a new law.
18/01/2012 04:05:02 PM
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Re: The devil is always in the details, and it seems clear the details need great revision.
18/01/2012 04:27:30 PM
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If the US government wants to summarily block sites within the US, it already can and will.
18/01/2012 06:15:53 PM
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You know all this anti-SOPA bullshit is making me hope the bill passes.
18/01/2012 04:00:17 AM
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I would not go THAT far; it seems clear these bills have many objectionable provisions.
18/01/2012 11:41:23 AM
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Re: I would not go THAT far; it seems clear these bills have many objectionable provisions.
19/01/2012 01:57:46 AM
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Yeah, the extreme bias on both sides is why the bills will likely pass more or less as written.
19/01/2012 03:31:52 PM
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joel, you need to consider three things
18/01/2012 06:06:16 AM
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You need to consider that they WILL pass some legislation, and what you want it to contain.
18/01/2012 12:15:38 PM
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again, it's not about piracy, it's about protecting the mpaa/riaa business model at our expense
18/01/2012 03:34:32 PM
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Yeah, see, that is the problem: "it's not about piracy."
18/01/2012 03:57:55 PM
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if piracy is such a problem then the mpaa/riaa need to PROVE their losses
19/01/2012 02:43:31 AM
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How do you expect anyone to prove what people WOULD HAVE bought if they could not just take it?
19/01/2012 03:57:24 PM
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A technical examination of SOPA and PROTECT IP
18/01/2012 08:32:44 AM
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"As a disclaimer, I am not a lawyer, I'm a sysadmin."
18/01/2012 12:47:16 PM
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Wikipedia has already convinced me
18/01/2012 03:26:01 PM
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Trying to stop this legislation without proposing an alternative is trying to stop ANY legislation.
18/01/2012 03:44:18 PM
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It isn't their job to propose legislation
18/01/2012 04:12:53 PM
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No, but they have as much RIGHT to do so as anyone else.
18/01/2012 05:31:55 PM
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Strike three.
18/01/2012 05:37:55 PM
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That is fine; that is what people SHOULD be doing.
18/01/2012 06:03:59 PM
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Things being better now than they would be under SOPA seems like a legitimate argument to me
18/01/2012 09:04:18 PM
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Against SOPA, sure; against ANY new law, no.
18/01/2012 10:46:48 PM
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About "proposing new legislation"
18/01/2012 04:45:08 PM
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So true
18/01/2012 05:08:45 PM
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Re: About "proposing new legislation"
18/01/2012 05:59:55 PM
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Hm, you should read my post one above about combatting online piracy.
18/01/2012 06:20:16 PM
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I would not recommend photocopying a book and handing it out on street corners.
18/01/2012 06:45:52 PM
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Not to blame, neccessarily. But you have to live in the real world.
18/01/2012 07:31:18 PM
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Re: Not to blame, neccessarily. But you have to live in the real world.
18/01/2012 08:55:59 PM
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I always liked the codewheels SSI provided with copies of their Gold Box AD&D games.
18/01/2012 10:07:40 PM
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These are really different arguments
19/01/2012 12:05:10 AM
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TV is slightly different, because regional availability becomes a factor.
19/01/2012 04:18:58 PM
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Yeah, so I use Russian wikipedia for a day. Or German wikipedia, or French, or Italian... *NM*
18/01/2012 06:23:36 PM
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Or just hit stop right before the script runs. *NM*
18/01/2012 06:52:40 PM
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Or just disable Java. *NM*
19/01/2012 01:58:03 AM
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That's not as much fun though. *NM*
19/01/2012 02:13:44 AM
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Exactly, this way its kind of a game. *NM*
19/01/2012 02:20:37 AM
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I really don't see the fun in that. Wikipedia is just a tool, not a game. *NM*
19/01/2012 04:59:14 AM
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I don't know about those (except French), but none of the ones I ever used are remotely as good. *NM*
18/01/2012 08:13:47 PM
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Russian wikipedia is very good if you're not checking some obscure Western cultural phenomena.
19/01/2012 01:57:43 AM
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Or Answers.com, or even the actual sources that are often copy/pasted into Wikipedia...
19/01/2012 01:07:38 AM
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Re: Or Answers.com, or even the actual sources that are often copy/pasted into Wikipedia... *NM*
19/01/2012 01:34:46 AM
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Oh, no; now Congress will be inundated with complaints from lazy college students!
19/01/2012 04:40:12 PM
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13 previously unopposed senators now do not support SOPA.
19/01/2012 11:36:15 PM
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How does that "rebutt" what was a facetious post in the first place?
20/01/2012 09:24:27 PM
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