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If we have time, sure. Joel Send a noteboard - 15/01/2012 10:18:31 PM
Anyway, both reasons are pure oversimplification - there wasn't/isn't a finite number of Taliban Baddies to kill before we can leave. It's a philosophy, and it is only gone if people feel they can avoid it w/o being punished. That is as much part of our goal as stymieing present Taliban members.

That was never going to happen, even if some in the current and previous administrations believed otherwise. That goal can only be achieved as it was in post-war Germany and Japan: With about a quarter million soldiers imposing and maintaining martial law for a decade or so to fully prevent "insurgency" (a term I still think misapplied; most Afghan "insurgents" are NATIVES: WE are the foreigners.) Mass re-education of the populace to instill democratic principles and eradicate authoritarian ones is also indispensable.

That we never so much as attempted that speaks volumes about the sincerity of our stated goal to "spread democracy." We lack the manpower, money and political patience for a decade (or more; the Allies did not relinquish their last role in West Germanys government until around 1990) of full scale occupation, and knew that before one soldier set foot in Afghanistan (or Iraq.) The greatest evidence the administration did not truly seek to "impose democracy" (impossible in authoritarian cultures without aggressive indoctrination of the whole populace, and let us not kid ourselves about that) is that we never revived the draft necessary to provide the required garrison manpower.

Our FEASIBLE objective has been accomplished. If we left tomorrow the Taliban does not have the capital, technology or infrastructure to shelter and support anti-Western terrorists, nor the desire, given that we would simply drop a couple dozen daisy-cutters in the middle of any new terrorist training camps. It is not like the Taliban could build a Hitler style underground bunker to protect would be terrorists, or cram hundreds of them into it while preserving the means to train them. There is a reason most of Al Qaeda long ago fled to Pakistan, and the dispersion they chose for survival prevents concentrated large scale training for future terrorism.

Afghanistan was different because the Taliban knowingly gave terrorists a safe haven where they plotted and trained to blow up the WTC. Thus we invaded as much to prevent it happening again as to retaliate. Liberation, spreading democracy, winning the hearts and minds; all great if they happen, but never our motive.

Having a hardcore reason or excuse isn't the same thing as having stated no other reasons. Not at all. We said that we were going to bring Democracy. You may claim that that isn't important, given that we always say that, but you would be wrong. If we want the right to throw that in as a bargaining chip whenever we want, we can't act like barbarians on the stage.

We do not HAVE the right to throw that in as a bargaining chip at will; we forfeited it when we declined to intervene against dozens of other petty dictatorships around the world, and certainly when we opted to actively aid many of them. "Spreading democracy" did not motivate us to remove Mubarak; on the contrary, preventing terrorism motivated us to arm him with weapons he often used against his own citizens. Why do we not "spread democracy" to the Saudi monarchy that forbids women to drive and executes people for homosexuality, rather than selling them F-16s and Patriot missile systems? Because that is not among our priorities, rhetoric notwithstanding. We sacrificed the preeminent priority of democracy back in the fifties when we began staging coups any time a nations electorate "voted wrong" and democratically chose a communist government.

Sure, we CLAIMED spreading democracy among our motives, but our past and present record gives that the lie. Ultimately, it would not be our right or responsibility to impose democracy on the worlds various authoritarian countries even if we had the means (which we very much do not.) They must solve that problem for themselves; I agree with AIDING and SUPPORTING those of their citizens who try, but we literally CANNOT do it for them. We can knock down their old tyrant, but until/unless they gain some respect for and comprehension of democracy they will just replace it with another exactly like it. Hence I am not doing cartwheels over the fall of Egypts military junta or the rise of Turkeys theocratic party against theirs. Replacing a countrys current authoritarian regime is a necessary but not sufficient component of making it democratic; the new regime must be more democratic than the previous one or nothing changed save the letter head.

I agree the behavior was disgraceful, and undermines any kind of "enlightened" image we seek to project, along with any conciliatory impulse from the Taliban and probably most Afghanis, but in terms of our stated mission: We were there to put down or at least muzzle a rabid dog, which we largely have.

We have had an effect, yes, but in order for the war to actually have meant anything, we need that difference to stick after we leave. Giving the citizens who have to live with that reality any reason to be swayed to the Taliban side is absolute stupidity.

When we leave, the Taliban or anyone else running Afghanistan will be too busy rebuilding their shattered country with few resources to waste them hosting and sponsoring anti-Western terrorists. The Taliban is simply no longer a threat to the US; about the only thing that would change FOR AMERICA if they regained power is that the flow of Afghani heroin and opium would once again dry up because they hate drug dealers with a passion. They have neither means nor desire to pick another fight with the US once we leave, and great incentive to refrain from that. Our REAL mission--the only one ever possible to achieve without a far greater commitment than virtually any American will accept--has been accomplished.

Fortunately, US soldiers disgracefully profaning enemy corpses does not alter that, and does not doom our stated goal of "spreading democracy." Our insincerity and lack of means doomed THAT pretense from the outset. About the only thing we are still fighting for in Afghanistan or Iraq is to preserve a puppet government that possesses a large oil reserve and another that controls the land through which a pipeline could be built, thereby diminishing the threat of an anti-Western state gaining control of the Suez and/or Straits of Hormuz.
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Am I the only one who doesn't care if the Marines piss on the corpses of Taliban? - 13/01/2012 03:28:08 PM 1699 Views
Eh, it makes our guys look like uncivilized barbarian hicks. - 13/01/2012 03:37:24 PM 865 Views
They're not? *NM* - 17/01/2012 09:52:28 AM 451 Views
Probably not the only one. - 13/01/2012 03:51:18 PM 1015 Views
I agree. *NM* - 13/01/2012 08:11:57 PM 423 Views
Well said. *NM* - 13/01/2012 10:52:26 PM 391 Views
Excellent post. - 14/01/2012 04:23:32 PM 741 Views
well said indeed. *NM* - 14/01/2012 06:30:21 PM 455 Views
Actually, IIRC, we were told the Afghanistan war was important because of the Talibans threat to us. - 14/01/2012 11:18:28 PM 714 Views
Yes, that was part of it. Of course. AND we were going to help bring democracy. - 15/01/2012 12:42:57 AM 688 Views
If we have time, sure. - 15/01/2012 10:18:31 PM 820 Views
ooookay. *NM* - 16/01/2012 12:12:06 AM 403 Views
? - 16/01/2012 01:17:37 AM 747 Views
Re: ? - 16/01/2012 12:22:39 PM 737 Views
I quite agree with Joel on this point (frightening as that admission may be). - 16/01/2012 02:01:05 PM 737 Views
Doesn't matter. - 16/01/2012 02:33:53 PM 735 Views
Your definition of "terrible thing" seems quite elastic. - 16/01/2012 07:21:12 PM 655 Views
I knew I had a good reason to hate you! - 16/01/2012 09:14:47 PM 736 Views
It took this post for you to realize that? - 16/01/2012 09:17:00 PM 734 Views
I am pissed at them - 13/01/2012 06:00:56 PM 1019 Views
Yup. *NM* - 13/01/2012 06:07:10 PM 427 Views
Nope, you aren't. - 13/01/2012 07:08:06 PM 683 Views
I have a strong feeling that this was not the worst that's been done to those bodies - 13/01/2012 10:43:34 PM 801 Views
any army simply reflects the society it is created from - 13/01/2012 11:06:57 PM 866 Views
Agreed - 14/01/2012 12:37:45 AM 744 Views
You're far from the only one, but I don't agree with it. - 14/01/2012 12:17:31 AM 820 Views
Awful. Worst post ever. *NM* - 14/01/2012 05:12:41 PM 560 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 14/01/2012 06:28:25 PM 401 Views
moral? - 14/01/2012 09:53:01 PM 805 Views
I agree it was stupid to record it, and a breach of policy. - 14/01/2012 11:05:49 PM 680 Views
im just baffled - 14/01/2012 11:36:32 PM 706 Views
Well, in the future you can expect it. - 15/01/2012 02:54:59 AM 689 Views
This shows that you are a bit of a sociopath *NM* - 15/01/2012 08:08:39 AM 366 Views
But we knew that already. *NM* - 15/01/2012 11:18:02 AM 387 Views
You're still upset I called American girls prudes. - 15/01/2012 04:43:31 PM 627 Views
I had forgotten you called American girls prudes - 16/01/2012 10:22:50 AM 712 Views
as someone said on the radio recently... - 16/01/2012 08:41:25 PM 719 Views
They aren't conditioned to murder, much less "in cold blood" - 16/01/2012 09:15:54 PM 798 Views
surprisingly there really is no conditioning to kill - 16/01/2012 09:33:51 PM 727 Views
You used the phrase enemy combatant... - 17/01/2012 10:34:41 PM 704 Views
they are a problematic enemy - 17/01/2012 11:41:11 PM 1015 Views
stop listening to idiots on the radio *NM* - 16/01/2012 09:16:42 PM 366 Views

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