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For atheism to be a tenable position, one must assume that millions lie about their experiences. Tom Send a noteboard - 20/12/2011 04:11:53 AM
Certainly, there are plenty of people who do lie about these things - for recognition, in lying to themselves, for fun, pathologically or otherwise - and others who exaggerate experience or self-select.

Even taking that into account, there is a tremendous level of consistency with which certain "spiritual" experiences take place. We know that people are sometimes able to exhibit superhuman strength, tossing aside cars and whatnot. Sheer physics tells us this should not be possible. It is common for the dying to see the dead, about a month or so before their own deaths (and thus not part of any "brain death hallucination"). Many people see people at the moment of that person's death in a place the person cannot be (i.e., the "I saw my uncle in the dining room and said, 'How nice of you to visit!' and then when I went to tell my wife, he was gone. My aunt called then and said he had died 300 miles away").

Dismissing all of this as "the world is lying to me" or "people are lying to themselves" is very difficult. The numbers are much higher than, say, alien abduction stories, and so dismissing it as hysteria or schizophrenia or a similar disorder is extremely flippant.

In other words, atheism goes against anecdotal evidence that rises to a level that it cannot be merely discounted and swept under the rug.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 20/12/2011 at 04:12:18 AM
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Kim Jong-il is dead. Would you become a fervent believer? - 19/12/2011 03:37:28 AM 1581 Views
If I was a Christian, I'd pray that he would burn forever in hell. - 19/12/2011 03:47:52 AM 991 Views
See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 03:53:55 AM 954 Views
I agree about atheism - 19/12/2011 04:19:02 AM 811 Views
It's an approximation. - 19/12/2011 05:40:05 PM 840 Views
no, I'm not saying that the sheer number of people alone is sufficient - 19/12/2011 10:13:09 PM 728 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 04:25:06 AM 811 Views
No, Pascal's Wager is stupid. - 19/12/2011 03:09:42 PM 819 Views
You obviously misread my comments or ignored them. - 19/12/2011 03:39:59 PM 833 Views
You're answering a different point to the one I was addressing. - 19/12/2011 04:01:54 PM 749 Views
For atheism to be a tenable position, one must assume that millions lie about their experiences. - 20/12/2011 04:11:53 AM 833 Views
Look, doesn't this go against your most sacred principle? - 20/12/2011 06:43:27 AM 803 Views
I'm pretty sure he's not saying it's undeniable proof. - 20/12/2011 09:19:44 AM 755 Views
No, it doesn't. - 20/12/2011 08:30:55 PM 717 Views
Re: No, it doesn't. - 20/12/2011 09:21:22 PM 761 Views
This militant atheism is somewhat amusing. - 20/12/2011 09:48:57 PM 783 Views
... somewhat irrational at times too - 21/12/2011 01:22:54 AM 698 Views
Huh? - 21/12/2011 10:47:06 AM 744 Views
That's somewhat unrelated to the intended point of the post - 21/12/2011 12:41:49 PM 749 Views
My "Huh?" was at your claim that any reasonable definition Kim Jong-il was a millitant athiest - 21/12/2011 12:58:44 PM 739 Views
You're objecting to me calling the Military Dictator militant? - 21/12/2011 03:13:35 PM 781 Views
Is that the long way of saying you can't back up what you said? - 21/12/2011 04:06:06 PM 710 Views
Okay - 21/12/2011 05:03:07 PM 802 Views
Your position isn't rational nor logical - 20/12/2011 12:45:03 PM 770 Views
How about a faith atheist? - 19/12/2011 04:28:59 PM 886 Views
Nevermind. It appears you answered that in your reply to Tim. *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:32:19 PM 430 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 04:57:23 PM 851 Views
Sounds like you must be a modern-day prophet - 19/12/2011 05:24:24 PM 695 Views
Well, it's *possible* that he is. - 19/12/2011 05:49:34 PM 780 Views
Hah, fair enough - 19/12/2011 06:47:07 PM 743 Views
Idiocy. Confirmation bias doesn't explain away external phenomena. - 20/12/2011 04:19:10 AM 823 Views
Well. - 21/12/2011 01:49:36 PM 725 Views
I didn't forget about it. I was getting ready to give up on it. - 21/12/2011 02:27:18 PM 692 Views
That doesn't really make sense. - 21/12/2011 03:04:23 PM 625 Views
No, it does make perfect sense. - 21/12/2011 06:17:02 PM 766 Views
Also, learn to use the subjunctive. It's "if I WERE a Christian..." - 19/12/2011 03:54:20 AM 812 Views
The sad thing about that comment... - 19/12/2011 04:52:57 AM 936 Views
I really am gonna miss Hitchens...a lot *NM* *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:06:50 AM 372 Views
I will miss him, too...a lot. *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:17:05 AM 359 Views
so, hypothetically...if I was to send you a list of people... - 19/12/2011 04:25:47 AM 767 Views
Let's not try that. - 20/12/2011 04:21:35 AM 728 Views
I'm so ronery - 19/12/2011 06:36:38 AM 812 Views
I thought you were asking if I believed in KJ-I, the Eternal Leader - 19/12/2011 06:55:08 AM 710 Views
You know what's really weird? - 19/12/2011 11:32:23 AM 782 Views
It has been there for 6 hours at this stage. - 19/12/2011 12:34:57 PM 851 Views
don't forget Mugabe (sp) - 19/12/2011 01:06:24 PM 693 Views
Zimbabwe basically is dust by now. *NM* - 19/12/2011 02:52:51 PM 354 Views
They took it down, apparently. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:40:24 AM 336 Views
Turns out Kim Jong really was il? - 19/12/2011 12:10:15 PM 740 Views
all praise Madokami! *NM* - 19/12/2011 01:03:26 PM 421 Views
He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans. - 19/12/2011 04:23:48 PM 770 Views
Re: He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans. - 19/12/2011 09:15:09 PM 694 Views
That happened to me too. - 19/12/2011 09:45:48 PM 828 Views
Re: That happened to me too. - 19/12/2011 09:48:36 PM 692 Views
Re: Legend - 20/12/2011 04:54:40 PM 705 Views
I wonder if they're going to embalm him? - 20/12/2011 04:39:33 AM 632 Views
The problem with predictions that come true - 19/12/2011 05:28:24 PM 803 Views
I don't make a lot of predictions. *NM* - 19/12/2011 08:18:53 PM 473 Views
Just ones about old, sick guys dying? *NM* - 19/12/2011 09:51:12 PM 320 Views
No, sadly. - 20/12/2011 04:31:44 AM 633 Views
I can attest to the fact that this conversation took place on Facebook Saturday. - 19/12/2011 09:19:06 PM 701 Views
Yeah, I thought that reply seemed in the wrong place - 19/12/2011 09:28:17 PM 721 Views
Re: Yeah, I thought that reply seemed in the wrong place - 19/12/2011 09:31:00 PM 715 Views
Yes, TMJ, you also contributed in this case. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:38:42 AM 324 Views
I am not a dog to be petted! - 21/12/2011 02:42:55 AM 706 Views
HAHAHAHA!!!! *NM* - 21/12/2011 05:31:06 AM 417 Views
Coincidentally, I found this site today - 19/12/2011 10:57:36 PM 747 Views
Oh, I liked that site. I found it a few years ago. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:37:04 AM 326 Views
Jeez, I hope I never get on your bad side - 20/12/2011 12:06:54 AM 654 Views
Things did change for the better with Stalin's death. - 20/12/2011 02:51:12 AM 759 Views
Not for Stalin *NM* - 20/12/2011 09:49:39 PM 388 Views
eh, you can't have everything - 20/12/2011 11:08:36 PM 654 Views
Not to downplay your awesomely uncanny coincidence... - 20/12/2011 01:19:33 PM 725 Views

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