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You obviously misread my comments or ignored them. Tom Send a noteboard - 19/12/2011 03:39:59 PM
My criticism is far stronger than "you can't prove a negative". My own personal experience has provided me with evidence (admittedly not conclusive) that there is some form of higher power at work, regardless of how we attempt to quantify it. The nature of the evidence (dreams, strong intuition, statements expressed without even thinking) is not the sort of thing that can be scientifically measured. However, the simple LACK of a means of repeating something, or even conducting an experiment in the first place, does not mean that the evidence has no value. Logical reasoning is the strongest and most consistent way to form opinions, but anecdotal evidence also tends to be accurate quite often, even if it has a higher probability for error and/or misstatement.

It's as difficult to prove as to prove to a blind man that the Sun exists. Sure, he's heard a lot about it, and you can try to take him outside on a sunny day, but the same feeling can be reproduced by putting him under a heat lamp. He has no reason to believe in the existence of something he himself has no way of measuring. Does this mean that a blind man has reason to say that there is no Sun?

The absurdities that you listed, like the Loch Ness Monster, are obviously different. In the case of the Loch Ness Monster, we know that humans can create fake experiences for others, people can lie and say they saw it, and mistake a simple natural occurrence for the Monster. While one can apply all of these possibilities to some forms of interaction with what we believe to be the Divine, it cannot explain most of the unusual experiences that I have had. Dreams that are told to third party witnesses who can corroborate the telling have then come true. I have witnesses, because otherwise I might be inclined to believe that my recollections of having dreamt something are hallucinations or that the relevance is misstated.

Ask my friend, to whom I said the following in July 2001: "You asked me to tell you if I had any dreams that could affect you and so I just wanted you to know that, on the basis of my dream last night, you should move out of downtown Manhattan because I dreamt there was a major terrorist attack downtown that devastated the whole neighborhood." The very reason he had asked me to warn him about my dreams is because of a whole series of dreams I had told him about prior to this.

I'm far from Pascal's wager and into the territory where my primary focus is to try to understand the how, the why and the implications.


I'm sure you're familiar with its criticisms, so rather than repeat them here I'll just post a link. But how do you answer them?

Your other criticism of atheism essentially boils down to "you can't prove a negative". True, but no sensible person believes a positive without sufficient credible evidence. Until then, you assume the negative and lead your life as if the purported entity doesn't exist. This applies equally to extraterrestrial life, mythical creatures such as Nessie, and deities. Your supposed atheist who believes there's no possibility that a god could exist (as opposed to merely not believing that one exists) is a strawman: most atheists don't think that way, and those who do are wrong to do so.

The real point of difference is whether one accepts the evidence, such as it is, that a god exists. Just because I don't, doesn't mean I wouldn't if better evidence turned up.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Kim Jong-il is dead. Would you become a fervent believer? - 19/12/2011 03:37:28 AM 1554 Views
If I was a Christian, I'd pray that he would burn forever in hell. - 19/12/2011 03:47:52 AM 964 Views
See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 03:53:55 AM 928 Views
I agree about atheism - 19/12/2011 04:19:02 AM 791 Views
It's an approximation. - 19/12/2011 05:40:05 PM 817 Views
no, I'm not saying that the sheer number of people alone is sufficient - 19/12/2011 10:13:09 PM 698 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 04:25:06 AM 793 Views
No, Pascal's Wager is stupid. - 19/12/2011 03:09:42 PM 794 Views
You obviously misread my comments or ignored them. - 19/12/2011 03:39:59 PM 784 Views
You're answering a different point to the one I was addressing. - 19/12/2011 04:01:54 PM 718 Views
For atheism to be a tenable position, one must assume that millions lie about their experiences. - 20/12/2011 04:11:53 AM 807 Views
Look, doesn't this go against your most sacred principle? - 20/12/2011 06:43:27 AM 771 Views
I'm pretty sure he's not saying it's undeniable proof. - 20/12/2011 09:19:44 AM 729 Views
No, it doesn't. - 20/12/2011 08:30:55 PM 692 Views
Re: No, it doesn't. - 20/12/2011 09:21:22 PM 739 Views
This militant atheism is somewhat amusing. - 20/12/2011 09:48:57 PM 752 Views
... somewhat irrational at times too - 21/12/2011 01:22:54 AM 670 Views
Huh? - 21/12/2011 10:47:06 AM 711 Views
That's somewhat unrelated to the intended point of the post - 21/12/2011 12:41:49 PM 721 Views
My "Huh?" was at your claim that any reasonable definition Kim Jong-il was a millitant athiest - 21/12/2011 12:58:44 PM 715 Views
You're objecting to me calling the Military Dictator militant? - 21/12/2011 03:13:35 PM 752 Views
Is that the long way of saying you can't back up what you said? - 21/12/2011 04:06:06 PM 683 Views
Okay - 21/12/2011 05:03:07 PM 775 Views
Your position isn't rational nor logical - 20/12/2011 12:45:03 PM 741 Views
How about a faith atheist? - 19/12/2011 04:28:59 PM 860 Views
Nevermind. It appears you answered that in your reply to Tim. *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:32:19 PM 420 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist. - 19/12/2011 04:57:23 PM 822 Views
Sounds like you must be a modern-day prophet - 19/12/2011 05:24:24 PM 667 Views
Well, it's *possible* that he is. - 19/12/2011 05:49:34 PM 756 Views
Hah, fair enough - 19/12/2011 06:47:07 PM 716 Views
Idiocy. Confirmation bias doesn't explain away external phenomena. - 20/12/2011 04:19:10 AM 791 Views
Well. - 21/12/2011 01:49:36 PM 699 Views
I didn't forget about it. I was getting ready to give up on it. - 21/12/2011 02:27:18 PM 684 Views
That doesn't really make sense. - 21/12/2011 03:04:23 PM 596 Views
No, it does make perfect sense. - 21/12/2011 06:17:02 PM 732 Views
Also, learn to use the subjunctive. It's "if I WERE a Christian..." - 19/12/2011 03:54:20 AM 784 Views
The sad thing about that comment... - 19/12/2011 04:52:57 AM 909 Views
I really am gonna miss Hitchens...a lot *NM* *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:06:50 AM 360 Views
I will miss him, too...a lot. *NM* - 19/12/2011 04:17:05 AM 347 Views
so, hypothetically...if I was to send you a list of people... - 19/12/2011 04:25:47 AM 742 Views
Let's not try that. - 20/12/2011 04:21:35 AM 700 Views
I'm so ronery - 19/12/2011 06:36:38 AM 784 Views
I thought you were asking if I believed in KJ-I, the Eternal Leader - 19/12/2011 06:55:08 AM 685 Views
You know what's really weird? - 19/12/2011 11:32:23 AM 757 Views
It has been there for 6 hours at this stage. - 19/12/2011 12:34:57 PM 832 Views
don't forget Mugabe (sp) - 19/12/2011 01:06:24 PM 665 Views
Zimbabwe basically is dust by now. *NM* - 19/12/2011 02:52:51 PM 344 Views
They took it down, apparently. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:40:24 AM 327 Views
Turns out Kim Jong really was il? - 19/12/2011 12:10:15 PM 715 Views
all praise Madokami! *NM* - 19/12/2011 01:03:26 PM 411 Views
He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans. - 19/12/2011 04:23:48 PM 742 Views
Re: He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans. - 19/12/2011 09:15:09 PM 662 Views
That happened to me too. - 19/12/2011 09:45:48 PM 801 Views
Re: That happened to me too. - 19/12/2011 09:48:36 PM 661 Views
Re: Legend - 20/12/2011 04:54:40 PM 673 Views
I wonder if they're going to embalm him? - 20/12/2011 04:39:33 AM 604 Views
The problem with predictions that come true - 19/12/2011 05:28:24 PM 772 Views
I don't make a lot of predictions. *NM* - 19/12/2011 08:18:53 PM 461 Views
Just ones about old, sick guys dying? *NM* - 19/12/2011 09:51:12 PM 312 Views
No, sadly. - 20/12/2011 04:31:44 AM 604 Views
I can attest to the fact that this conversation took place on Facebook Saturday. - 19/12/2011 09:19:06 PM 694 Views
Yeah, I thought that reply seemed in the wrong place - 19/12/2011 09:28:17 PM 699 Views
Re: Yeah, I thought that reply seemed in the wrong place - 19/12/2011 09:31:00 PM 689 Views
Yes, TMJ, you also contributed in this case. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:38:42 AM 313 Views
I am not a dog to be petted! - 21/12/2011 02:42:55 AM 675 Views
HAHAHAHA!!!! *NM* - 21/12/2011 05:31:06 AM 402 Views
Coincidentally, I found this site today - 19/12/2011 10:57:36 PM 719 Views
Oh, I liked that site. I found it a few years ago. *NM* - 20/12/2011 04:37:04 AM 313 Views
Jeez, I hope I never get on your bad side - 20/12/2011 12:06:54 AM 628 Views
Things did change for the better with Stalin's death. - 20/12/2011 02:51:12 AM 732 Views
Not for Stalin *NM* - 20/12/2011 09:49:39 PM 376 Views
eh, you can't have everything - 20/12/2011 11:08:36 PM 624 Views
Not to downplay your awesomely uncanny coincidence... - 20/12/2011 01:19:33 PM 692 Views

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