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You really do make this too easy. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/11/2011 10:28:31 PM
Not that I am saying it was justified against people just passively sitting there, but you have to admit it was not exactly Kent State all over again. To be fair, this is the first I have heard of it, so I do not know much about the context or the full extent of the incident; I did find it interesting when I googled it just now that even the article on it in the notoriously conservative Washington Times was fairly critical (and, for anyone unaware of what that means, while I was there I saw a link to another times article on "Obamas denigrate America tour.")
Of course, what really irritates me is that people seem to have no historical context. Like, take a look at any of the giant protest movements over the last 100 years. When, in ANY of them, has the history sided with "police officers who attack unarmed protesters?"

Pretty much never, though there have been some surprising examples of the people responsible walking away unscathed. The Bonus Army is the one that always comes to mind for me: Douglas MacArthur ordered the army to attack (twice,) George Patton led a cavalry charge against a tent city occupied by veterans and their families and both men went on to fame and glory in the Second World War a decade later.

Of course, all of that goes out the window as soon as any protestor initiates violence, and even defensive violence can destroy public support if it is not VERY CLEARLY self defence. At that point the moral highground is lost and the protest is guaranteed a status somewhere between the Haymarket Riots and John Browns raid on Harpers Ferry.
Also, people using the word "hippie" simply because they're protesters. It's 2011, that's like calling anyone in a Starbucks a "beatnik."

Ugh.

You mean insluting and demeaning to the legacy of hippies? :P I dunno; in retrospect I cannot help feeling a lot of hippies were just spoiled middle class draft dodgers who wanted to get wasted and laid, and as soon as they no longer had to fear the draft they bought in, piled on and sold out. ;)

As most of the Occupy Wall Street protestors' objection to materialism and capitalist greed is their inability to participate. There is nothing admirable here, just a bunch of petty, immature losers acting on an unwarranted sense of entitlement, and almost certainly from the same demographic that was so excited three years ago about the Hope and Change candidate, sponsored by the same financial community they protest today. What is more, this whole notion of "Occupying" Wall Street serves only to interfere with other members of the 99%, as the majority of people who work on Wall Street are, as well as the ones most directly impacted by the stock market's failures. Protesting a bad economy at Wall Street is like protesting a military defeat at an army base - you might be upset about the ripples you're feeling, but you're acting on it by harassing those whose very livelihoods are concerned with those events, and who have probably lost friends and colleagues as well.

It is more like protesting a military defeat at the Pentagon, if the people doing it had also lost friends and family in the "ripples" from selfish, misguided, delusional and irresponsible policies created there, and justifiably demanded accountability for it no longer be denied. MacArthur claimed the Bonus Army were communists trying to overthrow the government, too (despite many of them having fought and bled for it in the Great War;) that was how he "justified" driving tanks over their children. Sorry, no sale, and my expectation you will defend MacArthur on the grounds he WAS driving tanks over communist children, and therefore justified, just illustrates how pointless this conversation is.
As far as the violence and so forth goes, the narrative crafted after the fact will reflect what those writing it want it to. Someone mentioned historical context in this thread, but they are just stringing together a bunch of unrelated protests, and not looking at the individual contexts of those. For example, Martin Luther King Jr's march on Selma was against the advice of all sorts of civil rights leaders, including the black community of Selma, because for all intents and purposes, they had already won. Instead, his glory-seeking march sparked excessive retaliation from Bull Connors and revitalized his lame-duck career, rallying the support of opponents of the civil rights movement, not to mention drawing down the violence on children and other human shields King incited to march. His own obnoxious behavior does not justify what was done in response, but after the fact, the narrative reflects this pointless & unnecessary conflict which only served to inflate the reputations of the irresponsible leaders on both sides, is reflected as a grand triumph after the fact.

Wow; "the victor is never asked if he told the truth" followed by an indictment of the Selma march. Your Grand Dragon must be very proud. ;)
Likewise at Kent State, it was hardly like the National Guard marched in and started randomly gunning down hippies. It was in the aftermath of attacks on guardsmen, of female demonstrators feeding them drugged snacks and the shooting itself was precipitated by someone throwing stuff at them. Yet history remembers them as the wrongdoers.

By most accounts it was very much like the National Guard marched in and started randomly gunning down hippies. There had been a case of arson on previous days, and some instances of protestors throwing rocks at Guardsmen and police (assuming they were actual protestors and not an armed FBI infiltrator like the one who testified at the official inquiry,) but on there was not even mild violence against police or Guardsmen on the day of the shooting. The Guardsmen were well out of thrown-rock range when they knelt down as a group and opened fire, but the protesters were unfortunately not out of rifle range. History remembers them as wrongdoers for the simple fact that they were, but the biased will never ask his partisans if they told the truth either, nor deign to acknowledge facts well documented by witnesses on both sides of the actual events.
When race riots were sweeping the country, Chicago was largely spared (as were most of the cities in the South), because of Mayor Daley's expressed willingness to allow the police to shoot back in the eventuality.

Well, thank God Richard Daleys draconian tactics spared Chicago violence and bloodshed in the '60s (and we will just pretend the '68 DNC never happened. ;))
Lets all try to remember that this country was founded by men like John Adams who defended the soldiers who shot at the mobs in the Boston Massacre, not by the "demonstrators".

This nation was founded by a bunch of malcontents whose secret societies convened to declare treason against their lawful government, a founding their militant secret society gave action by shooting their way through the army to seize a government munitions depot.

It is good to see though that you "remember" all the times I have cited Adams' passionate, eloquent and well reasoned arguments against capital punishment in his Boston Massacre defence; pity you remembered the point so poorly. In this case, the most relevant part is the extensive time Adams devoted to Boston demonstrators throwing rocks and snowballs at the soldiers, whether that reasonably constituted a threat, whether that threat was mortal and whether the soldiers responded reasonably. In the end, six of the soldiers were acquitted because it could not be proven they fired into the crowd, but the two proven to have fired into the crowd were convicted, avoiding death only by invoking the already archaic benefit of clergy that exempted priests from execution and treated demonstration of literacy as proof one was a clergyman. In other words, the soldiers who fired, despite having had rocks thrown at them, were judged guilty of a crime deserving death, which penalty they escaped only through an antiquated legal loophole. That corresponds to Henry Knox (later Washingtons Secy. of War and the man for whom the famous fort is named) earnestly told the British commander on the scene: "For God's sake, take care of your men. If they fire, you must die." Of the demonstration itself, Adams is widely quoted to have said three years later, "On the night of March 5, 1770, the foundation of American independence was laid." Thus Adams himself explicitly disputes your statement that the US was not founded by those demonstrators and, as with the death penalty, I trust his objectivity and judgement far more than yours.

This is another of those cases where dismissing one group of demonstrators for no more reason than that they demonstrate is rank hypocrisy when accompanied by admiration for a different group of demonstrators that founded ones nation. OWS is not even plotting treason (so far as I know; frankly, I would not put it past many of them, but that is a separate issue from their right to protest itself) so I hardly see how their behavior is any more despicable than that of Hancock or Washington at the Continental Congress. Ones personal feelings about one group versus the other should have no bearing on ones feelings about the right of both to demonstrate; one is as legitimate (or not) as the other.
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An Open Letter to Police Officers Across America - 20/11/2011 03:27:46 AM 1303 Views
Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. - 20/11/2011 03:59:42 AM 779 Views
I am forced to agree. - 20/11/2011 04:37:07 AM 614 Views
You're right, but stuff like what just happened at UC Davis makes my blood boil - 20/11/2011 05:52:11 AM 598 Views
As such things go, that does not seem too bad to me. - 20/11/2011 06:14:54 AM 777 Views
You do know that they initiated violence at Kent State, right? - 20/11/2011 02:45:57 PM 586 Views
You really do make this too easy. - 21/11/2011 10:28:31 PM 830 Views
hear hear *NM* - 20/11/2011 04:47:12 AM 278 Views
Agreed. - 20/11/2011 06:28:18 AM 731 Views
I agree with everything you said in this post. *NM* - 20/11/2011 07:53:07 AM 246 Views
a little late for that - 21/11/2011 01:54:34 PM 529 Views
What the fuck are you on? I need to get some of that. *NM* - 20/11/2011 04:56:00 AM 292 Views
I'm going to start a counter protest with "Bring back the Pinkertons" signs... - 20/11/2011 05:19:19 AM 566 Views
*NM* - 20/11/2011 05:49:35 AM 353 Views
I seen some guys holding signs saying "occupy a desk" *NM* - 21/11/2011 01:55:38 PM 305 Views
One of the most poorly written pieces of shit I've read in a long time. *NM* - 20/11/2011 06:30:29 AM 354 Views
"unarmed and peaceful protestors" - 20/11/2011 01:15:47 PM 612 Views
armed and violent? really? *NM* - 21/11/2011 05:31:44 PM 272 Views
Declaring people "enemy combatants" means they get to treat you as such too. - 20/11/2011 01:55:51 PM 581 Views
Don't cloud the propaganda with logic, Tim! - 20/11/2011 04:16:05 PM 613 Views
That's the problem with a two-party system: it's practically impossible to form a new party. *NM* - 20/11/2011 05:42:39 PM 250 Views
I think that's completely wrong. - 20/11/2011 06:10:15 PM 651 Views
The odds are very long. - 20/11/2011 07:15:54 PM 720 Views
And implicit in my statement above is the following addendum - 20/11/2011 06:14:40 PM 739 Views
I agree with that. However, many seem to think that means it's OK to beat them up. - 20/11/2011 06:21:05 PM 607 Views
Only if they resist arrest, and then the force must be proportionate. *NM* - 20/11/2011 09:52:39 PM 274 Views
If they resist a lawful arrest, sure. *NM* - 21/11/2011 11:11:11 AM 267 Views
they are breaking the law so it is lawful to arrest them *NM* - 21/11/2011 10:46:18 PM 263 Views
In what way? - 22/11/2011 09:12:01 AM 590 Views
Resisting arrest. Duh. *NM* - 22/11/2011 10:11:04 AM 271 Views
You are not allowed to just block sidewalks and camp wherever you want - 22/11/2011 01:54:42 PM 567 Views
In that case I quite agree. - 22/11/2011 02:08:02 PM 541 Views
Its still okay to beat communists up though right? *NM* - 21/11/2011 11:27:14 AM 260 Views
(OWS isn't anti-capitalism) - 20/11/2011 06:39:37 PM 529 Views
You've posted this, but you don't seem inclined to defend it, one might ask what the point was? - 21/11/2011 05:16:13 PM 521 Views
He'd post, but this is what happened. - 22/11/2011 03:55:43 AM 497 Views
I'm actually calling for them to start using lethal force. *NM* - 22/11/2011 03:46:24 AM 304 Views

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