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Some things are better off in private hands, but "natural dependcies" are not among those things. Joel Send a noteboard - 20/10/2011 03:42:15 PM
I already know you're a "True Believer" and a genuine socialist, you don't really need to reinforce the point.

But look, 'privatize' is simply not what you seem to think it is. I could privatize Social Security simply by having the trust fund placed in the hands of a corporation in which there was a specific charter banning them from buying pretty much anything other than gold or US bonds and having the CEO and board selected by the 'shareholders', it's then private, with no effective change. Going apeshit with this 'dead bodies clogging the streets' garbage is even more juvenile then when someone flips out about the idea that some township might zone itself such that those in certain residential districts would be required to use the 'socialist' municipal garbage, sewer, and water services.

"Privatize" does not automatically equal throwing people to wolves, we wouldn't need to privatize anything were that the goal, and it isn't, the GOP is not some comic opera group of greed-mongers ripped from some cheesy movie. We want a safety net that 1) Is stable and fiscally sound 2) gives people choices 3) doesn't breed dependency and 4) doesn't punish or vilify success. I don't see what is wrong with, say, allowing people 4 options to choose from and being allowed to switch out with little penalty. I'd be a hell of a lot happier if I got to pick from, say, an account with Wells Fargo that stored my cash in gold ingots in some vault somewhere or an 'insurance' plan that stipulated I'd receive X amount a month once I was no longer able to work by dint of age or injury, or maybe could pick both, with the gov't having no more role than to stipulate what the minimum I had to dump in was and maybe doing some baseline amount per citizen and/or matching funds. Don't know why that couldn't been mostly farmed out to private companies and simply monitored... the city doesn't have to own the garbage trucks to do garbage pickup, they can hire a company to do it, that's what 'privatize' means. There's little reason not to privatize something where a natural monopoly doesn't exist, and pensions and SS certainly aren't a natural monopoly, and even natural monopolies often benefit from privatization. Not that that will sway you, because I don't think you actually believe anything is better off in private hands.

As far as what you say Republicans want:

1) Social Security is stable and fiscally sound; again, it is only out of money because we borrowed from it for two decades with people telling us it would bankrupt the system. If I could go back in time to 2000 and put the trillion dollar surplus in Al Gores "lockbox" I would, but then, I would have done it then, had I the power.

2) I am fine with choices, but not speculating with retirement income any more than necessary. I have no more problem with people choosing how SOME of their Social Security payments are invested now than I did when Gore suggested "universal savings accounts" in 2000, but, as then, only as a SUPPLEMENT to a minimum baseline of retirement benefits. In 2000 many people probably preferred a nice chunky tech stock, or maybe Enron, to the Social Securitys paltry GUARANTEED benefits, but I doubt that remains true. "Put Social Security into the stock market" was a novel and popular idea during the tech bubble and booming Clinton economy, but less so in the ten years since both ended; apparently the GOP missed the memo. :P That is the problem with the idea: Stock market success depends on buying and selling at the right time, if we could "choose" when we turn 65 or get our leg chopped off by a combine, most people would "never." That we cannot has nothing to with intrusive wasteful government.

3) Mother Nature bred dependency on social security insurance; anyone who has a problem with that should take it up with God, or Adam.

4) Social Security does not punish success; that is why we do not means test it. If anything, it rewards success by capping the withholding contribution.

So, yeah, I am fine with supplementing minimum Social Security benefits with optional investments of the beneficiaries choosing, just do not remove the baseline, nor the requirement that employers share the burden with employees (in fact, I think it a bit unfair that the 2011 withholding cap has been reduced for employees but NOT employers; sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, in my book.)

Regarding your presentation of privatization, the "shareholders" of the Social Security trust fund are the US public, which already picks a "CEO" every four years to run it with the assistance of a 535 member "board." They, of course, appoint someone to head the SSA that is responsible to them and thereby the public, but I fail to see how saying, "the Social Security Administration is no longer an arm of the government, but a wholly private institution whose CEO and board are selected by the President and Congress as the elected representatives of the share holding public," makes it private. If you are talking about giving the responsibility to an existing private institution you are talking about adding Social Security to their existing (profit making) priorities, with no more accountability than the prospect of losing the federal contract if they mismanage the trust fund. No, thanks.

Privatization in general does not have the best track record (have you priced a "22 cent" stamp lately?) In the case of trash collection, that might not be the best example to use with me: You may recall me mentioning the town where my mom lives finally taking her suggestion to contract with one of the two private trash collection companies residents had been using. Unfortunately, rather than having them submit competing low bids for the resultant monopoly and thereby lowering individual prices as well as increasing the companies overall revenue, they instead charged the company a fee for the privilege of that monopoly, which was then passed along to the residents and INCREASED their trash collection costs. Again I say, no, thanks.
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So I am curious. What do our site conservatives think of Cain? - 18/10/2011 09:35:47 AM 913 Views
You'd probably be better off asking after tomorrow's debate - 18/10/2011 10:19:50 AM 740 Views
He wasn't Abel ^_^ *NM* - 18/10/2011 01:24:57 PM 223 Views
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *NM* - 18/10/2011 06:44:55 PM 221 Views
I have trouble taking him seriously - 18/10/2011 01:59:23 PM 610 Views
That is the problem with all Romneys opponents. - 18/10/2011 03:32:50 PM 621 Views
what positions of Perry's do you consider radical? - 18/10/2011 03:56:30 PM 512 Views
Well, abolishing Social Security is pretty far out there, and publicly threatening the Fed Chairman. - 18/10/2011 04:50:03 PM 719 Views
yes but I was talkin about his actuall posistions not the made up stuff *NM* - 18/10/2011 05:10:47 PM 301 Views
When the candidate "makes them up" they are positions. - 18/10/2011 05:26:18 PM 531 Views
all you need to do is provide a link supporting your claim that Perry said he wants to abolish SS - 18/10/2011 05:56:23 PM 459 Views
Really? Do you not watch the news? That's common knowledge *NM* - 18/10/2011 06:04:06 PM 214 Views
I believe what RT means ... - 18/10/2011 06:22:42 PM 505 Views
No it isn't a fine point - 18/10/2011 06:48:00 PM 662 Views
He said he wants private retirement accounts instead, which is abolishing Social Security. - 18/10/2011 10:44:33 PM 645 Views
Privatizing isn't the same as abolishing - 18/10/2011 10:53:04 PM 575 Views
It is unless the governments role is more than "you MUST do this; figure out how on your own." - 19/10/2011 12:10:25 AM 639 Views
Are you correcting yourself or qualifying your statement? - 19/10/2011 06:30:34 AM 625 Views
Neither; laws requiring everyone do something do NOTHING themselves. - 20/10/2011 10:10:31 AM 605 Views
The ALL CAPS stuff isn't helping to convince me that this isn't all kool-aid drenched hyperbole - 20/10/2011 01:15:19 PM 557 Views
Some things are better off in private hands, but "natural dependcies" are not among those things. - 20/10/2011 03:42:15 PM 687 Views
Really give me link *NM* - 18/10/2011 06:38:24 PM 217 Views
It is ridiculously simple; here ya go: - 18/10/2011 08:15:24 PM 568 Views
OK he doesn't like it now give me the link where he wants to abolish it - 18/10/2011 09:29:38 PM 507 Views
You see no conflict between this post and your next one? - 18/10/2011 10:16:21 PM 657 Views
no I don't - 18/10/2011 11:36:38 PM 588 Views
By his own statements he either wants to end it or violate the Constitution. - 19/10/2011 12:13:33 AM 556 Views
you really excell at misunderstanding *NM* - 19/10/2011 12:30:32 AM 240 Views
and Perry is right about SS being unconstitutional - 18/10/2011 09:44:14 PM 486 Views
And you criticize MY choice of "unbiased" sources.... - 18/10/2011 10:33:56 PM 657 Views
I'm not a conservative, but - 18/10/2011 04:56:22 PM 553 Views
*hi5* *NM* - 18/10/2011 05:05:19 PM 230 Views
Imagine there is no pizza *NM* - 19/10/2011 12:02:36 AM 236 Views
Cain is the anti-christ? *NM* - 19/10/2011 12:18:21 AM 198 Views
Post-debate, my opinion is fairly unchanged - 19/10/2011 06:35:32 AM 713 Views
Romney slapped Perry down so hard tonight. It was wonderful. - 19/10/2011 06:53:52 AM 610 Views
It was that, I rather enjoyed it - 19/10/2011 07:10:49 AM 555 Views
I promise - 19/10/2011 10:33:49 AM 647 Views
I can see the buttons now: "Vote for... something... maybe...!" - 20/10/2011 10:46:44 AM 986 Views
...the words made sense by themselves, but when I put them together, meaning vanished. - 20/10/2011 11:33:46 AM 529 Views
Try sounding out each word. - 20/10/2011 11:59:25 AM 592 Views
let me ask you this about Cain - 19/10/2011 01:47:36 PM 631 Views
Why is that, would you think? - 19/10/2011 06:29:53 PM 582 Views
There just seems to be strong lack of good choices - 19/10/2011 06:50:25 PM 615 Views
I'm getting the same impression... not necessarily worse candidates, just more criticism. - 19/10/2011 08:37:21 PM 756 Views
I blame the press - 19/10/2011 09:05:36 PM 719 Views
Amen to that. I agree with everything you say. - 19/10/2011 09:49:45 PM 646 Views
I blame the public, and, to a lesser degree, Nielsen and Armitron. - 20/10/2011 11:39:43 AM 634 Views
tl;dr *NM* - 20/10/2011 12:19:03 PM 219 Views
Still prefer "TL;DV." - 20/10/2011 12:33:41 PM 655 Views
Re: There just seems to be strong lack of good choices - 20/10/2011 03:25:20 PM 864 Views
don't get me wrong I am not calling for a moderate - 20/10/2011 04:02:01 PM 779 Views
Re: let me ask you this about Cain - 20/10/2011 07:05:43 AM 567 Views

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