In theory, but economics is not politics, making social contracts a bit more dubious.
Joel Send a noteboard - 10/10/2011 05:18:39 AM
It should be said at the outset that, in my experience, it is pointless to the pose your questions to most Americans because so many of us have been conditioned to equate communism, socialism and fascism; it is nigh impossible to get past the partisan brainwashing to have an intelligent reasonable discussion on the merits and facts of each system free of propaganda when the Cato Institute is running around teaching people Hitler was a liberal. Anyway...
To a great extent, yes, but "free markets," as the term is usually employed, are far more analogous to libertarianism (or outright anarchy) than democracy. Democracy, all social contract government, is premised on the notion that groups of people delegate collective power to states both to achieve individually impossible shared goals and prevent exploitation by very powerful individuals or exclusive groups. "Free" markets place some value on the former but none on the latter, and independent of any state, regardless. They rely on market forces to prevent and eliminate economic abuse, an impossible hope because "free" markets produce abuse so extreme it instead eliminates market forces.
"Free" market advocates insist excesses like monopolies, oligopolies, collusion and market manipulation are not "free" market flaws, because those ills eliminate the market forces on which free markets depend. Unfortunately, that is rather like saying humans cannot be murdered because humans cannot survive murder. While extreme economic abuses preclude free markets, completely unregulated markets inevitably produce them, making free markets impossible: The "free" market is truly free only in infancy; the first entreprenuers and capitalists secure dominant market shares with which they ruthlessly stamp out competition, coercing consumer and laborer alike into submission.
That answers your last question: A true "free" market cannot itself exist, and thus can no more COexist with a true democracy than with anything else. Democratically regulated markets can and should be FAIR, level playing fields for thriving ceaseless competition with no overwhelming player dominating the rest, but wholly unfettered markets are impossible. The only question is our preferred restraint: The democratically enacted will of all citizens, or the self interest of the most powerful few. Free markets are impossible; fair markets are vital.
No, because communism attempts to expand democracys political ideals to include economic ones, and the extent to which that is wise, if any, remains contentious. The universal equality implicitly virtuous in democracy is stultifying and manifestly unjust in economics, where fairness and opportunity are far better goals. When democracy perceives an individual or exclusive group has an inherently superior position, its immediate obligation is restoring equality; in economics, that same reaction robs everyone of incentive and achievement. Democracy seeks to establish and maintain equal political power for all, yet in economics it is not only acceptable but desirable that some gain greater economic power than others.
I would (and do) say socialism better extends democracys political goals to economics, insofar as anything should. First and foremost, the hybrid system allows consumers, producers, investors, laborers and merchants to choose between obtaining goods and services privately or publicly in most or all cases. Just as communism, it ensures no one is denied vital goods or services except by choice, preserving equal opportunity, perhaps the only area true equality is an economic virtue. Again like communism, it is fair because government prevents any individual or group obtaining and exploiting irresistible force over any other. Unlike communism, however, it preserves choice, private enterprise and unequal economic achievement, thereby also preserving incentive, justice and overall economic achievement. Where communism is apt to commandeer and nationalize above average income as a "surplus" earned by and owed to the collective, socialism not only permits but encourages personal fortunes, while government taxes everyone as much as (but no more than) universal minimal living standards require.
I already answered these last two, and welcome.
I don't pretend to know the deep, internal workings of economics and I have a pretty good grasp on the different characteristics of government styles. A lot of Locke's principles that we base the American republic on are similar to the ideals of communist thought. The principles of equality, liberty, freedom, etc from democracy/ republics when applied to economics results in a lot of the same principles as communism. To the contrary, the king of the mountain mentality in free markets somewhat requires the few taking advantage of the many lower working class to amass wealth and get ahead. When applied to politics, that system doesn't represent equality, liberty, freedom. Its more accurate of an oligarchy or fascist state (think Nazi's taking advantage of a Slav working caste).
As a disclaimer, I know this is oversimplified and any government/economy today is a pretty complex mixture of a lot of ideas and systems. It seems the tea party and occupy wall street folks want principles from the political ideologies inserted into their economic world. So I have a few questions for you...
Do you think that the ideals of democracy have a place in a free market economy?
As a disclaimer, I know this is oversimplified and any government/economy today is a pretty complex mixture of a lot of ideas and systems. It seems the tea party and occupy wall street folks want principles from the political ideologies inserted into their economic world. So I have a few questions for you...
Do you think that the ideals of democracy have a place in a free market economy?
To a great extent, yes, but "free markets," as the term is usually employed, are far more analogous to libertarianism (or outright anarchy) than democracy. Democracy, all social contract government, is premised on the notion that groups of people delegate collective power to states both to achieve individually impossible shared goals and prevent exploitation by very powerful individuals or exclusive groups. "Free" markets place some value on the former but none on the latter, and independent of any state, regardless. They rely on market forces to prevent and eliminate economic abuse, an impossible hope because "free" markets produce abuse so extreme it instead eliminates market forces.
"Free" market advocates insist excesses like monopolies, oligopolies, collusion and market manipulation are not "free" market flaws, because those ills eliminate the market forces on which free markets depend. Unfortunately, that is rather like saying humans cannot be murdered because humans cannot survive murder. While extreme economic abuses preclude free markets, completely unregulated markets inevitably produce them, making free markets impossible: The "free" market is truly free only in infancy; the first entreprenuers and capitalists secure dominant market shares with which they ruthlessly stamp out competition, coercing consumer and laborer alike into submission.
That answers your last question: A true "free" market cannot itself exist, and thus can no more COexist with a true democracy than with anything else. Democratically regulated markets can and should be FAIR, level playing fields for thriving ceaseless competition with no overwhelming player dominating the rest, but wholly unfettered markets are impossible. The only question is our preferred restraint: The democratically enacted will of all citizens, or the self interest of the most powerful few. Free markets are impossible; fair markets are vital.
Do the ideals of democracy more accurately represent communism?
No, because communism attempts to expand democracys political ideals to include economic ones, and the extent to which that is wise, if any, remains contentious. The universal equality implicitly virtuous in democracy is stultifying and manifestly unjust in economics, where fairness and opportunity are far better goals. When democracy perceives an individual or exclusive group has an inherently superior position, its immediate obligation is restoring equality; in economics, that same reaction robs everyone of incentive and achievement. Democracy seeks to establish and maintain equal political power for all, yet in economics it is not only acceptable but desirable that some gain greater economic power than others.
I would (and do) say socialism better extends democracys political goals to economics, insofar as anything should. First and foremost, the hybrid system allows consumers, producers, investors, laborers and merchants to choose between obtaining goods and services privately or publicly in most or all cases. Just as communism, it ensures no one is denied vital goods or services except by choice, preserving equal opportunity, perhaps the only area true equality is an economic virtue. Again like communism, it is fair because government prevents any individual or group obtaining and exploiting irresistible force over any other. Unlike communism, however, it preserves choice, private enterprise and unequal economic achievement, thereby also preserving incentive, justice and overall economic achievement. Where communism is apt to commandeer and nationalize above average income as a "surplus" earned by and owed to the collective, socialism not only permits but encourages personal fortunes, while government taxes everyone as much as (but no more than) universal minimal living standards require.
Can a true democratic political system and a true free market economy coexist?
Why or why not on all of these questions.
Thanks
Why or why not on all of these questions.
Thanks
I already answered these last two, and welcome.
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 10/10/2011 at 05:22:07 AM
Is communism the true economy of democracies?
10/10/2011 01:35:24 AM
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Sorry, not following this.....
10/10/2011 03:33:11 AM
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Um, a LOT of places have mixed "free" market and state rule.
10/10/2011 05:43:49 AM
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WTF? Canada, Western Europe, and Japan are democracies, not state-rule like China - *NM*
10/10/2011 05:53:17 PM
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They are not similar.
10/10/2011 04:01:59 AM
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That's why Lenin came up with the soviets, though that was pretty naïve, too.
10/10/2011 05:54:37 AM
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Lenin died in 1924. The Civil War was over in 1920. He died after several strokes. *NM*
10/10/2011 05:30:58 PM
- 197 Views
Sorry, did not realize he survived it that long.
11/10/2011 04:21:05 AM
- 521 Views
There is no evidence that Lenin was poisoned.
11/10/2011 04:50:28 AM
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That is hardly the only way to kill; in Lenins condition, neglect would have sufficed.
11/10/2011 06:28:31 AM
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Let's see...you're asking if property theft by the state is compatible with freedom? No.
10/10/2011 04:58:14 AM
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I'm curious how you distinguish "full socialism" from "full communism."
10/10/2011 05:32:53 AM
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You obviously don't understand the definitions of socialism and communism.
10/10/2011 02:41:39 PM
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In theory, but economics is not politics, making social contracts a bit more dubious.
10/10/2011 05:18:39 AM
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No. A thousand times no.
10/10/2011 07:46:22 AM
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Guess I count myself among those fools, though I pretty much agree with Danny.
10/10/2011 10:52:11 AM
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I don't usually answer your scattershot rants, Joel, but you have overextended yourself.
10/10/2011 05:28:07 PM
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That still looks like Stalin and Mao rationalizing away the impossibility of their stated goals.
11/10/2011 05:59:06 AM
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No time to today, but you're very wrong.
11/10/2011 02:32:38 PM
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OK.
11/10/2011 03:08:17 PM
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Nope, because free-market democracy totally permits communism already
12/10/2011 12:50:36 AM
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