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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
And nothing has changed. I'm sorry, but I just don't care to get into such a big argument when we both interpret things very differently.

Fair enough, but after all, my primary contention here is that we DO interpret things very differently; that is why we subscribe to different religions.
But as for the Nicene Creed. I don't know very much about Christian history from the time after the New Testament. But I do know that much of the Nicene Creed was not commonly accepted for the ~300 years leading up to it. There were competing views, and some did not believe in the Trinity. Not just the Gnostics and other religions you mentioned, but Christians. So yes, a non-Nicene Christian is possible. My memory is fuzzy, but it seems like it Athanasian Christianity vs Something. IIRC, Athanasians believed the Trinity, the others believed in 3 distinct personages. I'm just trying to get the names across so you know what I mean, I'm sure you've studied it.

Though the comparison is natural; the crux of Arianism is Arius' contention that
If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing.

which is much the same logic Joseph Smith used to contend the Father made the Son and was Himself made by a father made in turn by yet ANOTHER father, though the bible never even references those last two beings (despite Joseph Smiths assertion to the contrary.) Athansius was orthodox doctrines chief apologist and thoroughly refuted that concepts place in Christianity a millennium and a half ago; it has only grown less rather than more compatible with Christianity since.

Christians COMMONLY accepted most, if not all, of the Nicene Creed long before the Council of Nicaea. The Council was prompted by that commonly accepted beliefs growing erosion and muddling due to deliberate Gnostic and heretic assaults and a widespread vagueness and ignorance among NEW Christians only beginning to rigorously explore Christology. Thus the Church formally stated its Christology, clarifying what was indisputably Spirit breathed (e.g. the Gospel of John) and what was simply heresy (e.g. Monophysite denial of Christs humanity, Ebionite denial of His divinity, and Gnostic Trojan horses like the "Gospels" of Thomas and Judas.) The Councils of Nicaea and Ephesus brought order out of chaos by the Grace of God, but the idea Christianity had until then been an eclectic equivalent of Gnosticism that simply replaced "gnosis" with "Jesus" in not credible.

Then as now there were certainly plenty of casual "disciples" who neither knew nor cared to know doctrinal details, but anyone familiar with Mormon history from NY to UT knows that a fan is not an adherent. Those who ARE adherents, however, require a clear doctrine to which they can adhere, particularly when besieged by myriad competing incompatible beliefs and new in their own faith. The Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, put an end to Christians confused into accepting things like Arianism, Monophysism and Ebionism, or led completely astray by things like Gnosticism. That is not to say another religion cannot now promote Arianism or anything else, only that a doctrine other than Christianitys long ago clearly and definitely established one is ANOTHER religion.
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The Arian Controversy
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Mormons - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2374 Views
Questions. - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1125 Views
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 578 Views
Nope. - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 968 Views
there's no real point to it - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 1966 Views
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wasn't going to argue... *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 551 Views
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Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 594 Views
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Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 478 Views
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Goodness.. - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 636 Views
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You know, my mother had a saying. - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 703 Views
I think it's safe to say ... - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 602 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 738 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 565 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 586 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 614 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 644 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 640 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 609 Views
Re: Also. - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 654 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 598 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 712 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 608 Views
Those were the good old days. - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 637 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 540 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 530 Views
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Disagree. *NM* - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 565 Views
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*sigh* to all of you above.... - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 637 Views
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i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 582 Views
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"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 955 Views
I conceded your last point. - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 869 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 894 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 973 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 927 Views
Oh, that's very simple - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 938 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 954 Views
thank you, both of you - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 938 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1013 Views
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Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 959 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1043 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1207 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1078 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 977 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1184 Views
Woah nelly. - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 995 Views
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1005 Views
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Exactly - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 912 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 991 Views
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It is not NECESSARILY racist. - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 950 Views
Sure, except ... - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 978 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 910 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 987 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 975 Views
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Why wait though? - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1109 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 512 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 939 Views
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I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1106 Views
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Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 905 Views
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True - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 864 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 968 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1091 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 552 Views
Re: Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1088 Views
Uhh... - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 911 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1020 Views
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No questions. Have a nice day. - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 913 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 639 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1018 Views

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