Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
Joel Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
And nothing has changed. I'm sorry, but I just don't care to get into such a big argument when we both interpret things very differently.
Fair enough, but after all, my primary contention here is that we DO interpret things very differently; that is why we subscribe to different religions.
But as for the Nicene Creed. I don't know very much about Christian history from the time after the New Testament. But I do know that much of the Nicene Creed was not commonly accepted for the ~300 years leading up to it. There were competing views, and some did not believe in the Trinity. Not just the Gnostics and other religions you mentioned, but Christians. So yes, a non-Nicene Christian is possible. My memory is fuzzy, but it seems like it Athanasian Christianity vs Something. IIRC, Athanasians believed the Trinity, the others believed in 3 distinct personages. I'm just trying to get the names across so you know what I mean, I'm sure you've studied it.
Though the comparison is natural; the crux of Arianism is Arius' contention that
If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing.
which is much the same logic Joseph Smith used to contend the Father made the Son and was Himself made by a father made in turn by yet ANOTHER father, though the bible never even references those last two beings (despite Joseph Smiths assertion to the contrary.) Athansius was orthodox doctrines chief apologist and thoroughly refuted that concepts place in Christianity a millennium and a half ago; it has only grown less rather than more compatible with Christianity since.
Christians COMMONLY accepted most, if not all, of the Nicene Creed long before the Council of Nicaea. The Council was prompted by that commonly accepted beliefs growing erosion and muddling due to deliberate Gnostic and heretic assaults and a widespread vagueness and ignorance among NEW Christians only beginning to rigorously explore Christology. Thus the Church formally stated its Christology, clarifying what was indisputably Spirit breathed (e.g. the Gospel of John) and what was simply heresy (e.g. Monophysite denial of Christs humanity, Ebionite denial of His divinity, and Gnostic Trojan horses like the "Gospels" of Thomas and Judas.) The Councils of Nicaea and Ephesus brought order out of chaos by the Grace of God, but the idea Christianity had until then been an eclectic equivalent of Gnosticism that simply replaced "gnosis" with "Jesus" in not credible.
Then as now there were certainly plenty of casual "disciples" who neither knew nor cared to know doctrinal details, but anyone familiar with Mormon history from NY to UT knows that a fan is not an adherent. Those who ARE adherents, however, require a clear doctrine to which they can adhere, particularly when besieged by myriad competing incompatible beliefs and new in their own faith. The Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, put an end to Christians confused into accepting things like Arianism, Monophysism and Ebionism, or led completely astray by things like Gnosticism. That is not to say another religion cannot now promote Arianism or anything else, only that a doctrine other than Christianitys long ago clearly and definitely established one is ANOTHER religion.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Mormons
03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM
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Questions.
03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM
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Re: Questions.
03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM
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I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk.
03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM
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Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM*
03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM*
03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM
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Nope.
04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM
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there's no real point to it
04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
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We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones
04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
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Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?"
03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM
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There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM*
03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM
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In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM*
03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
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Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities...
03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM
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Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible?
04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
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Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name.
04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM
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I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there
03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM
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Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM*
03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM
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Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him.
03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM
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Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM*
04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM
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Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM*
04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM
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I'll tell you whats embarresing...
04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM
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That is hilarious.
04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM
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Goodness..
04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM
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Re:
04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM
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OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly
04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM
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Re: Also.
04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM
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you are still using it incorrectly. *NM*
04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM
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He's doing it on purpose though.
04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM
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Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM
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Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM
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*sigh* to all of you above....
04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM
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Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
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you know, that does make me wonder though
03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM
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We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed.
03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM
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That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however.
03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM
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I understand what both you and Danny are saying
04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM
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The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's)
03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM
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We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God.
04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM
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If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM
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Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
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Woah nelly.
04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM
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I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM
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oh well that makes it all better...
04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM
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Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy.
04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM
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I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions.
04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM
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A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine.
04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM
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Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM
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Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one.
05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM
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Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan.
05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM
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I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked
04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
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it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel"
04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM
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It is not NECESSARILY racist.
04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM
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Sure, except ...
04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM
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Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
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It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian."
04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM
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I think we've had this discussion before.
06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM
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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
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Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism.
07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM
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I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies.
07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM
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Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ
07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM
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Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons.
07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM
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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM
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I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites.
07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM
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Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this.
07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM
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I was just saying there were competing views.
07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM
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Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views.
07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM
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That sounds really nice.
04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM
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Why wait though?
05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM
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So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM
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I really want an answer from a mormon.
05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM
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Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one
06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM
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Yeah, that's what I thought.
06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM
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Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head*
04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM
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....i don't know what you look like
04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM
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Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM*
05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
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Off-Topic
05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM
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Hmm
05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM
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True
05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM
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I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy.
05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM
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Re: Off-Topic
05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM
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Uhh...
05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM
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The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets.
05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM
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Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed.
04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM
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