If we are baptized in this life, the ordinance is done. If we are not, it can be done for us by proxy.
This is one doctrine that has always seemed so logical to me, I never have quite understood the attention and debate it stirs. Christ came to save all men. What about all the people who have never even heard his name? There are still people today who do not know anything about Christ. They have not been baptized, but it's not because they rejected Christ. Are they just out of luck?
Instead, we believe that they can learn the gospel in the afterlife, and can accept it. We perform their baptism for them, and they can choose to accept it or not. But it means it is their choice, not something beyond their control because of circumstances.
I really like this part of your religion. Not that it would help me, but still. This is good.
But then- shouldn't this be an argument *against* missionaries? What if you fail to convince someone and that person rejects Christ in this life. It seems like you'd be able to be more convincing in the afterlife.
Yes, which is precisely the problem: No one would need to be "convinced" of God when standing in His presence. That would eliminate choice and free will; do you "believe" or "have faith" in the screen on which you read this, or do you know it to be real? Outside a temporal reference frame to enable it, decision making in general gets tricky and, setting aside "eternity," non-material temporality is even more problematic (one reason literalist approaches to Eden are too restrictive; how long is a year in a static universe?) Ignorance may not be bliss, but temporary ignorance enables free will, and the story of the Fall seems to me more about that than about anything else.
That brings us to the sad state of Eve you referenced above (as well as the sad state of Adam about which you seem fairly impassive. ) Interesting stuff in that passage. For one thing, looking carefully reveals God does not give Adam command of Eve, only states that her desire for him will prompt her to submit to him, a phenomenon real enough for feminist scholars to spend decades railing against their weak willed sisters. God also incidentally tells Adam he and all his descendants will DIE for his sin, and have to work for a living. But before all that He says something else to the serpent:
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
Now, unless one thinks whoever the biblical author genuinely thought all reptiles were ought to get man from the start, the serpent of Genesis must be understood as a greater malevolent entity, either in the form of a serpent or taking control of one. That means the biblical author does not mean God declared an interspecies war, but instead promised one of Eves descendants would suffer greatly at the hands of that evil entity yet thereby win a final victory over him.
Every single descendant of Eve, whom the bible claims was mother of us all, would be heir to that promise. Some might forget it in whole or in part, and obviously THEIR descendants would never hear of it, but that would neither negate nor revoke the promise. Further, man had and has more than merely the words in a single tribes book to beat witness of God (though that same book later claims God literally created the Hebrew race from a single old man to preserve His covenant, precisely because everyone else forsook Him.) While sin must be a barrier to any perfect being (because tolerating sins presence would unmake any being DEFINED as perfect,) God need not and would not ignore man nor cease entreating reconciliation. It seems obvious no loving father would reject a repentant man who ignorantly but sincerely strives to love and serve his Maker.
The bible does not rely on merely being obviousness though; it explicitly states that:
Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” (Acts 17:22-32)
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” (Acts 17:22-32)
In other words, the "righteous pagans" (to use the classical term) are not condemned for buying their genetic lottery ticket too early or in Botswana; they are held accountable for faith in the ancient promise apart from any missionary, on the basis of bare existence and the wonders of the universe as Gods witness. However, after 200,000 years or so, as we simultaneously (but surely coincidentally ) stand on the brink of full apostasy and a half dozen means of self annihilation, the promise is fulfilled, and there is a grave difference between partial ignorance of God and conscious rejection of Him.
Still and so, the choice remains the individuals; as in Pauls day, some will mock the whole notion of resurrection from the dead, and others will hear more from him. In the story of Lazarus (the only story Jesus told where a "character" had a name and Jesus did NOT explicitly call it a parable) the rich man begs Moses to send Lazarus to his brothers so they will repent, and Moses says they have the Law and the Prophets to teach them. The rich mean protests that he also had the Law and the Prophets but did not repent, but that if Lazarus returns from the dead his brothers will listen; Moses replies that if they did not believe the Law and the Prophets they will not believe even one risen from the dead. All things considered, it is difficult to say he was wrong.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Mormons
03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM
- 2361 Views
Questions.
03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM
- 1115 Views
Re: Questions.
03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM
- 1075 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk.
03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM
- 1013 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM*
03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM
- 628 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM*
03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM
- 573 Views
Nope.
04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM
- 956 Views
there's no real point to it
04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
- 1956 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones
04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
- 922 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?"
03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM
- 1022 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM*
03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM
- 564 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM*
03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
- 574 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities...
03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM
- 1006 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible?
04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
- 965 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name.
04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM
- 919 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there
03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM
- 948 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM*
03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM
- 467 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him.
03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM
- 694 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM*
04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM
- 588 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM*
04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM
- 474 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing...
04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM
- 797 Views
That is hilarious.
04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM
- 689 Views
Goodness..
04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM
- 632 Views
Re:
04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM
- 663 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly
04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM
- 609 Views
Re: Also.
04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM
- 649 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM*
04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM
- 596 Views
He's doing it on purpose though.
04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM
- 707 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM
- 598 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM
- 621 Views
*sigh* to all of you above....
04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM
- 634 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
- 1103 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though
03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM
- 995 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed.
03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM
- 973 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however.
03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM
- 960 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying
04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM
- 914 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's)
03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM
- 937 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God.
04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM
- 1028 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM
- 1187 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
- 1167 Views
Woah nelly.
04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM
- 981 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM
- 897 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM
- 989 Views
oh well that makes it all better...
04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM
- 1012 Views
Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy.
04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM
- 984 Views
I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions.
04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM
- 961 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine.
04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM
- 954 Views
Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM
- 524 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one.
05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM
- 763 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan.
05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM
- 930 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked
04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
- 878 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel"
04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM
- 925 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist.
04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM
- 939 Views
Sure, except ...
04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM
- 964 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
- 829 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian."
04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM
- 972 Views
I think we've had this discussion before.
06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM
- 957 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
- 844 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism.
07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM
- 1210 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies.
07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM
- 1319 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ
07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM
- 895 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons.
07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM
- 956 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM
- 972 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites.
07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM
- 869 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this.
07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM
- 952 Views
I was just saying there were competing views.
07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM
- 1328 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views.
07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM
- 852 Views
That sounds really nice.
04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM
- 916 Views
Why wait though?
05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM
- 1099 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM
- 510 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon.
05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM
- 946 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one
06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM
- 890 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought.
06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM
- 841 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head*
04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM
- 766 Views
....i don't know what you look like
04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM
- 904 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM*
05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
- 642 Views
Off-Topic
05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM
- 892 Views
Hmm
05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM
- 1050 Views
True
05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM
- 851 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy.
05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM
- 955 Views
Re: Off-Topic
05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM
- 1079 Views
Uhh...
05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM
- 897 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets.
05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM
- 1005 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed.
04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM
- 916 Views