Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
Joel Send a noteboard - 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
is guilty of SOMETHING. Makes it hard for anyone to claim the moral high ground. Let he who is without sin, and all that.
An attempt to explain or not, the thought that some people have dark skin because their ancestors were evil and I have white skin because my ancestors were pure is clearly verging sharply into racist territory, even if you don't feel that current dark-skinned people are evil and current white-skinned people are pure. It's a semantic step away from white-purity racism, but it's still on the same stage and the implications are similar.
Ultimately, I am inclined to agree, simply because of the principle of inherited guilt (which has a shaky theological foundation, to say the least.) Another funny thing: In the case of Ham (and I would be STUNNED if this is not a variation on that old hoary old verse, popularly used in Joseph Smiths day to rationalize for slavery,) Noah, not God, utters the malediction, without reference to skin color, only condemning one of his sons descendants to be "a servant of servants" to his other sons descendants. I say that because this could be a case of slapping a "Kick Me" sign on someones back: When they inevitably get kicked, does the fault lie with the people kicking them or the guy who made the sign? I would say both, but in any case, an innocent bystander observing that they are being kicked because they did something that made someone else mad enough to put a sign on their back is in no way an indictment of said bystander. THAT said, casting the action that prompted the sign as a "sin" does tend to imply at least some degree of judgment on the past, but is neither here nor there to present behavior or attitudes.
The point is that is more a case of "sucks to be them" than "they deserve it." Particularly in provincial settings where thunder and lightning come from "the Leader," people are eager of explanations for why some groups get shafted harder, deeper and more often than others. Ideally, an explanation that does not make "the Leader" into a total ass (clashes with the whole "righteous perfection" theme.) The easiest solution is to make peoples suffering into "the judgment of Heaven on their sins," and, if no such sins are readily evident, dead ancestors can conveniently be blamed since they are no longer around to defend their good name. Now, I would not be a bit surprised (the opposite, really) to learn there was no element of "the Indians ancestors were bad people so we deserve their land" in 1840s MO (let alone UT, particularly given the Mormons were as quick to declare it their New Canaan as the Puritans were New England) but it is not a given.
we're just surprised that anyone still clings to idiotic, racist bullshit like that, or would admit to it....
I mean, what, does he think that Jesus was a blond Aryan man, too? 

Just like people who think Jews have been punished for disobeying Mosaic law, rejecting Christ or [your unforgivable sin here] are not necessarily Anti-Semitic or approving of the Jews undeniable hardship over the past 2500 years or so. Again, it can simply be an attempted explanation rather than attempted justification.
An attempt to explain or not, the thought that some people have dark skin because their ancestors were evil and I have white skin because my ancestors were pure is clearly verging sharply into racist territory, even if you don't feel that current dark-skinned people are evil and current white-skinned people are pure. It's a semantic step away from white-purity racism, but it's still on the same stage and the implications are similar.
Ultimately, I am inclined to agree, simply because of the principle of inherited guilt (which has a shaky theological foundation, to say the least.) Another funny thing: In the case of Ham (and I would be STUNNED if this is not a variation on that old hoary old verse, popularly used in Joseph Smiths day to rationalize for slavery,) Noah, not God, utters the malediction, without reference to skin color, only condemning one of his sons descendants to be "a servant of servants" to his other sons descendants. I say that because this could be a case of slapping a "Kick Me" sign on someones back: When they inevitably get kicked, does the fault lie with the people kicking them or the guy who made the sign? I would say both, but in any case, an innocent bystander observing that they are being kicked because they did something that made someone else mad enough to put a sign on their back is in no way an indictment of said bystander. THAT said, casting the action that prompted the sign as a "sin" does tend to imply at least some degree of judgment on the past, but is neither here nor there to present behavior or attitudes.
The point is that is more a case of "sucks to be them" than "they deserve it." Particularly in provincial settings where thunder and lightning come from "the Leader," people are eager of explanations for why some groups get shafted harder, deeper and more often than others. Ideally, an explanation that does not make "the Leader" into a total ass (clashes with the whole "righteous perfection" theme.) The easiest solution is to make peoples suffering into "the judgment of Heaven on their sins," and, if no such sins are readily evident, dead ancestors can conveniently be blamed since they are no longer around to defend their good name. Now, I would not be a bit surprised (the opposite, really) to learn there was no element of "the Indians ancestors were bad people so we deserve their land" in 1840s MO (let alone UT, particularly given the Mormons were as quick to declare it their New Canaan as the Puritans were New England) but it is not a given.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Mormons
- 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM
2563 Views
Questions.
- 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM
1309 Views
Re: Questions.
- 03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM
1270 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk.
- 03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM
1186 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM*
- 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM
707 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM*
- 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM
661 Views
Nope.
- 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM
1138 Views
there's no real point to it
- 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
2166 Views
- 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
2166 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones




- 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
1108 Views




- 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
1108 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?"
- 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM
1218 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM*
- 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM
647 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists.
*NM*
- 03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
716 Views
*NM*
- 03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
716 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities...
- 03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM
1201 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible?
- 04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
1157 Views
- 04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
1157 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name.
- 04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM
1114 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there
- 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM
1141 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM*
- 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM
552 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him.
- 03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM
783 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad!
*NM*
- 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM
666 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM*
- 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM
557 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing...
- 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM
888 Views
That is hilarious.
- 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM
783 Views
Goodness..
- 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM
709 Views
Re:
- 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM
747 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly
- 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM
699 Views
Re: Also.
- 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM
740 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM*
- 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM
681 Views
He's doing it on purpose though.
- 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM
808 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
- 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM
671 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
- 04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM
706 Views
*sigh* to all of you above....
- 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM
720 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
- 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
1298 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though
- 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM
1191 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed.
- 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM
1159 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however.
- 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM
1165 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying
- 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM
1103 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's)
- 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM
1146 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God.
- 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM
1237 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
- 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM
1403 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
- 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
1383 Views
Woah nelly.
- 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM
1166 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
- 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM
1088 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
- 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM
1192 Views
oh well that makes it all better...
- 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM
1196 Views
Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy.
- 04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM
1178 Views
I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions.
- 04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM
1145 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine.
- 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM
1142 Views
Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM*
- 05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM
612 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one.
- 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM
929 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan.
- 05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM
1127 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked
- 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
1075 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel"
- 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM
1116 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist.
- 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM
1163 Views
Sure, except ...
- 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM
1170 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
- 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
1065 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian."
- 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM
1184 Views
I think we've had this discussion before.
- 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM
1177 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
- 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
1074 Views
- 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
1074 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism.
- 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM
1404 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies.
- 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM
1513 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ
- 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM
1106 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons.
- 07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM
1136 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
- 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM
1154 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites.
- 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM
1067 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this.
- 07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM
1144 Views
I was just saying there were competing views.
- 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM
1533 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views.
- 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM
1042 Views
That sounds really nice.
- 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM
1143 Views
Why wait though?
- 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM
1300 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM*
- 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM
593 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon.
- 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM
1144 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one
- 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM
1037 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought.
- 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM
1064 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head*
- 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM
950 Views
....i don't know what you look like
- 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM
1079 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave.
*NM*
- 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
720 Views
*NM*
- 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
720 Views
Off-Topic
- 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM
1060 Views
Hmm
- 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM
1261 Views
True
- 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM
1061 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy.
- 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM
1156 Views
Re: Off-Topic
- 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM
1289 Views
Uhh...
- 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM
1060 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets.
- 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM
1195 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed.
- 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM
1123 Views


