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Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer Send a noteboard - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
I will strive to ignore the taste of having thrown up in my mouth and continue, however.

Let's stick to some of the major disputes I have with what you wrote:

1. The fundamental, baseline requirement for being Christian is generally a belief in the Trinity, that God is one being in three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that Christ is God made man, who suffered, died and rose from the dead in an act of salvation. If you do not believe that, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. You can talk about Jesus and feel he's important, but Muslims, Baha'i and other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses do that. It doesn't make you Christian.


A1) Read this article. http://lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng&query=need+latter+day+prophets This should clear things up on this matter.

2. You believe that God was as man is, and man will be as God is. This directly contradicts Isaiah, where God says there are no other gods. This is a rejection of the Trinity and a rejection of the Bible.


A2) Once again, we believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. 1 Nephi 10:19 tells us that the time of the Lord is one eternal round. I don't think we have the capacity to understand this, just as we can't truly understand how God is without beginning or end. And about what Isaiah said, I think that God is saying that He is the only God for our world and that there is no other God for our world.

3. You ask where prophecy has been made obsolete. Hebrews 1:1. Furthermore, the Bible tells us to be on watch for false prophets and antichrists, and Joe Smith was definitely a false prophet. False prophets and antichrists deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). We know a false prophet in two ways: (1) he asks us to follow gods other than God (Deuteronomy 13:1) or (2) if any prophecy he makes does not come true (Deuteronomy 18:21). Joe Smith said the US government would collapse before 1900, he said that there were people on the moon and a whole bunch of other things that were lies. He presumed to translate an Egyptian funerary scroll as a "Book of Moses", which was a lie and a fabrication. He also preaches polytheism in a convenient veil of "the Godhead", which is not the same as God the Father, who is not the only God in Joe Smith's little fantasy world. By either of those standards he would have been stoned to death under Biblical law.


A3) If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then why in these times would he just put an end to any prophecies? When Christ established His church in His mortal ministry, he called people to be prophets and apostles (Ephesians 4:11-12). If Christ had prophets and apostles in His church when he lived, then why would he decide that they are no longer necessary? Joseph Smith taught that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that He was sent down to earth to atone for the sins of men. Is that not the same Christ in whom other Christians believe? Joseph Smith prophesied that a war would soon begin, starting with rebellions in South Carolina, that the South would divide itself from the North and that the South would call on many nations, Great Britain among these, to come help them. These all happened. As for the collapse of the United States government before the 1900s and people living on the moon? I have never heard of either of these. He would have been a martyr, as many prophets in old and new testament times also were martyrs.

4. Your baptism is not a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, which is what the Biblical baptism is all about: "Confessing their sins, they were baptized by [John] in the Jordan River" (Matthew 3:6).


A4) Article of Faith 4- We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. How is that not being baptized and our sins forgiven?

5. The Book of Mormon is a direct contradiction of Galatians 1:9. Not only that, but you have refuted or ignored so much of the Bible that there is almost no point in having it sit next to the Book of Mormon. You should try reading the entire Bible, if only to realize that you are violating almost everything that it says.


A5) We believe that we have the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. This would be the same gospel that Christ taught in his mortal ministry.

6. Joe Smith was dim-witted. His Book of Mormon is a terrible farce of a book, written with no skill, repeating phrases from the King James Bible and garbling nearly all of them, and so riddled with errors and sentence fragments that it's been revised and revised and revised. It doesn't take a genius to write the Book of Mormon. Here, let me show you:

And it came to pass, that Jophim said to Jophiriah, his son, "Take thee thine oxen and scrumbles and cattle and goest thou unto the land of the Morriphi, and when thou arrivest, tell them that the LORD sends His wrath upon them, and take thou then their land from them. And it came to pass that Jophiriah took his oxen and scrumbles and cattle and went up to the land of the Morriphi, and he found there Cordiah, high priest of the Morriphi...

The entire book is bad copies of Jewish names with no etymology underlying them, made-up place names and a history that is a bad copy of some of the "historical" books of the Bible. Seriously, white people in North America with wheeled carts, cows, metal implements and a whole lot of other things that the Indians never had? There is no complexity to the Book of Mor(m)on. It's an awful parody of the Bible, made up by someone who had heard virtually nothing else in his sad life.


A6) The only thing I can say to this is that your haven't read the Book of Mormon with real intend to find out if these things are true. To me, I don't care if you can't find wheels of cows, I know that these teachings are true and that The Book of Mormon is true. But as for the white people in North America, we know that when the people became wicked, a curse of dark skin was placed upon them. If they were dark skinned before then whats the point of the curse?

7. Joe Smith was a con man, and he did try to make money. He went around with a dowsing rod and a "seeing glass" and told people that he'd find treasure on their property if they paid him money. Later on, he started a bank that was a pyramid scheme. All the way up until a rightly angry mob took justice into their own hands (I think he should have been tried and thrown in jail to rot), he was trying to get rich. He took money from his followers, he took their wives and he lived on other peoples' money. He was a true parasite. You would do well to read Fawn Brodie's No Man Knows My History, which is the biography that all non-Mormons generally agree to be accurate (Mormons usually stick their fingers in their ears and hum loudly to avoid hearing the truth). I also highly recommend The Mormon Mirage, which would confront you with just how far the Mormons have strayed from Christianity.


A7) These things you have clearly heard from people who know nothing of this church and of the prophet Joseph Smith.
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Mormons CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2400 Views
Questions. Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1147 Views
Ooh! Ooh! Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:18:38 AM 1002 Views
I don't watch it. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:34:53 AM 1006 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM 1106 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:31:13 PM 938 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk. aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM 1040 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM* beetnemesis - 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM 641 Views
Wyld Stallyns!! aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:26:54 PM 934 Views
STATION! *NM* Two Wongs - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 564 Views
Re: One of the best replies, ever, on the internet. *NM* Gaps - 06/10/2011 02:43:07 AM 617 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 586 Views
Nope. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 990 Views
there's no real point to it LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 1987 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones Isaac - 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM 958 Views
wasn't going to argue... *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 558 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 1056 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM* Legolas - 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM 579 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM* Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM 592 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities... Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM 1049 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible? Joel - 04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM 1002 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name. Gher - 04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM 956 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there ironclad - 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM 979 Views
There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... Danu - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 904 Views
Don't get me wrong by the way, I've met wonderful Mormons ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:22:03 PM 951 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM* Urza - 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM 483 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him. Nate - 03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM 705 Views
Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. Urza - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 596 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 600 Views
Well, I suppose you'ld be the one to know. *NM* Urza - 04/10/2011 01:54:35 AM 533 Views
Really? You really just pulled a "takes one to know one"? *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:19:22 PM 633 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 489 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing... Urza - 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM 814 Views
That is hilarious. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM 705 Views
Goodness.. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 644 Views
Re: Nate - 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM 678 Views
You know, my mother had a saying. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 713 Views
I think it's safe to say ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 609 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... Legolas - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 751 Views
*NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 570 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 595 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly beetnemesis - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 625 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". Legolas - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 651 Views
Re: Re: Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 652 Views
Re: Re: Stephen - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 621 Views
Re: Also. Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 665 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 608 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 728 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... Gaps - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 619 Views
Those were the good old days. Nate - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 647 Views
*NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 551 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 539 Views
That's not quite right, actually. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:25:54 PM 562 Views
Disagree. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 572 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 609 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Urza - 04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM 637 Views
Heh. Oh, Ryan. Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:36:43 PM 730 Views
*sigh* to all of you above.... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 646 Views
I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 634 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 593 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. Tom - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1135 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 1033 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 1007 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 980 Views
I conceded your last point. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 888 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: Joel - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 913 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. Tom - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 994 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 945 Views
Oh, that's very simple Tom - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 964 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. Dannymac - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 971 Views
thank you, both of you LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 958 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. Rebekah - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1036 Views
Agreed. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 924 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) Jeordam - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 975 Views
Glad you enjoyed it Tom - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1082 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 982 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1068 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. Tom - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1228 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1105 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 1003 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1210 Views
Woah nelly. Ghavrel - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1015 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 932 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1037 Views
oh well that makes it all better... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1055 Views
Exactly ironclad - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 941 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? Joel - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 1016 Views
Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM 1017 Views
I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions. Vivien - 04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM 998 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine. Joel - 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM 984 Views
Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM 542 Views
OK, within the Mormon context I can see that point. Joel - 05/10/2011 12:33:52 AM 925 Views
They can in quite a few denominations. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:12:35 AM 593 Views
Whoops! You meant in LDS specifically. My mistake. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:14:05 AM 557 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM 792 Views
Yes, that is kind of the problem. Joel - 06/10/2011 12:13:27 AM 954 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM 978 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked Joel - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 916 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 962 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 969 Views
Sure, except ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1003 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors... Joel - 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM 869 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? Tom - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 927 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." Joel - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 1011 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 1000 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM 885 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism. Legolas - 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM 1248 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies. Joel - 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM 1349 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ Larry - 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM 936 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM 992 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel - 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM 1014 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM 909 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM 987 Views
I was just saying there were competing views. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM 1368 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM 886 Views
That sounds really nice. Vivien - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 957 Views
Why wait though? Joel - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1134 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 524 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 Joel - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 959 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM 978 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one Joel - 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM 913 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 882 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1133 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 969 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 797 Views
....i don't know what you look like LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 932 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM* everynametaken - 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM 657 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. Joel - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1135 Views
Off-Topic Larry - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 915 Views
Hmm Tom - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1091 Views
True Larry - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 887 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. Tom - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 990 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology Larry - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1116 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* Tom - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 561 Views
Re: Off-Topic CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1116 Views
Uhh... Larry - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 929 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1042 Views
And you know that because... why, again? Joel - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 967 Views
Tough Crowd. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1080 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. TaskmasterJack - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 936 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* Dan - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 646 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1039 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed. everynametaken - 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM 956 Views
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