Not that I don't think it is well-written, I'm just in no real position to judge.
But it is a story about a family from Jerusalem. They split up shortly after arriving in the New World, forming two civilizations. They write their history, and up until a point it is written directly by them. Then, we are told that from here on out, the writings are abridgments of many other documents and records. The descendants then meet up with another completely separate civilization that came from Jerusalem, who have found the writings of another much more ancient civilization, but are unable to translate it. We are then given more of their history, of their many wars and struggles. We follow them up to ~400 AD. Then the person who has abridged most of the book passes it on to his Son, who then abridges and inserts the records found by the second group from Jerusalem, the records of the very ancient civilization. Then, the son writes a few words, and includes letters and other things from his father and his time.
There are a lot of different authors. And they seem to have different interests. When Nephi (the very first) writes about wars and contentions, he simply states that there were wars and contentions. When Mormon (the one who abridged much of the record) writes of war, he is much more descriptive, focusing heavily on what was going on. Considering he was a general for his people, his interest in war is understandable. His son, who is one of the last survivors of his people, abridges the records of another people who killed themselves off. Many of the authors in the latter part of the beginning write almost nothing, save that they received the record, and passed it on.
It's too complex for a dim-witted farmboy.
Please, lets keep this a polite discussion. You don't agree with me. I know that!
Fundamental and baseline according to the First Ecumenical Council . Fundamental and baseline according to you, even.
We do not simply talk about Christ and feel he's important. We believe he is the one and only way to salvation. That his Atonement is the greatest event in the history of everything. That he wants each of us to follow him, and that he loves everyone with a pure love we can hardly fathom. He is the Son of God, and the Only Begotten in the flesh. He is not simply some great moral teacher, or a guy with good ideas.
Yes, we believe that. But we do not believe that there is a god greater than God. There are no other gods we can or should pray to. I don't know how all that works. But for this universe and creation, there is One God.
Hebrews 1:1 says that he spoke to prophets. Other verses say he sent his Son, who is greater than the prophets. And then... nothing. Nothing says that no more prophets are needed.
Joseph Smith did not deny Jesus is the Christ. He did not ask anyone to follow gods other than God. I've never heard of those prophecies you talk of.
What is "my" baptism then?
It is not a contradiction. It is Another Testament. I have not read the entire Bible, something I do need to do. But I have read much of it, and most of the New Testament. I do not see that I am "violating almost everything that it says". Honestly, they mesh quite well.
Congratulations, you have managed a verse.
Yes, I did just skip the latter part of your post. I don't see the point when discussion hits this level of hostility. This is the point where we settle down and yell at each other. I will keep those books in mind.
I will comment on one part:
This is wrong. He had done nothing to make them a "rightly" angry mob. Angry mobs have stoned and killed prophets before, and they are not "right".
But it is a story about a family from Jerusalem. They split up shortly after arriving in the New World, forming two civilizations. They write their history, and up until a point it is written directly by them. Then, we are told that from here on out, the writings are abridgments of many other documents and records. The descendants then meet up with another completely separate civilization that came from Jerusalem, who have found the writings of another much more ancient civilization, but are unable to translate it. We are then given more of their history, of their many wars and struggles. We follow them up to ~400 AD. Then the person who has abridged most of the book passes it on to his Son, who then abridges and inserts the records found by the second group from Jerusalem, the records of the very ancient civilization. Then, the son writes a few words, and includes letters and other things from his father and his time.
There are a lot of different authors. And they seem to have different interests. When Nephi (the very first) writes about wars and contentions, he simply states that there were wars and contentions. When Mormon (the one who abridged much of the record) writes of war, he is much more descriptive, focusing heavily on what was going on. Considering he was a general for his people, his interest in war is understandable. His son, who is one of the last survivors of his people, abridges the records of another people who killed themselves off. Many of the authors in the latter part of the beginning write almost nothing, save that they received the record, and passed it on.
It's too complex for a dim-witted farmboy.
I will strive to ignore the taste of having thrown up in my mouth and continue, however.
Please, lets keep this a polite discussion. You don't agree with me. I know that!
Let's stick to some of the major disputes I have with what you wrote:
1. The fundamental, baseline requirement for being Christian is generally a belief in the Trinity, that God is one being in three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that Christ is God made man, who suffered, died and rose from the dead in an act of salvation. If you do not believe that, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. You can talk about Jesus and feel he's important, but Muslims, Baha'i and other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses do that. It doesn't make you Christian.
Fundamental and baseline according to the First Ecumenical Council . Fundamental and baseline according to you, even.
We do not simply talk about Christ and feel he's important. We believe he is the one and only way to salvation. That his Atonement is the greatest event in the history of everything. That he wants each of us to follow him, and that he loves everyone with a pure love we can hardly fathom. He is the Son of God, and the Only Begotten in the flesh. He is not simply some great moral teacher, or a guy with good ideas.
2. You believe that God was as man is, and man will be as God is. This directly contradicts Isaiah, where God says there are no other gods. This is a rejection of the Trinity and a rejection of the Bible.
Yes, we believe that. But we do not believe that there is a god greater than God. There are no other gods we can or should pray to. I don't know how all that works. But for this universe and creation, there is One God.
3. You ask where prophecy has been made obsolete. Hebrews 1:1. Furthermore, the Bible tells us to be on watch for false prophets and antichrists, and Joe Smith was definitely a false prophet. False prophets and antichrists deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). We know a false prophet in two ways: (1) he asks us to follow gods other than God (Deuteronomy 13:1) or (2) if any prophecy he makes does not come true (Deuteronomy 18:21). Joe Smith said the US government would collapse before 1900, he said that there were people on the moon and a whole bunch of other things that were lies. He presumed to translate an Egyptian funerary scroll as a "Book of Moses", which was a lie and a fabrication. He also preaches polytheism in a convenient veil of "the Godhead", which is not the same as God the Father, who is not the only God in Joe Smith's little fantasy world. By either of those standards he would have been stoned to death under Biblical law.
Hebrews 1:1 says that he spoke to prophets. Other verses say he sent his Son, who is greater than the prophets. And then... nothing. Nothing says that no more prophets are needed.
Joseph Smith did not deny Jesus is the Christ. He did not ask anyone to follow gods other than God. I've never heard of those prophecies you talk of.
4. Your baptism is not a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, which is what the Biblical baptism is all about: "Confessing their sins, they were baptized by [John] in the Jordan River" (Matthew 3:6).
What is "my" baptism then?
5. The Book of Mormon is a direct contradiction of Galatians 1:9. Not only that, but you have refuted or ignored so much of the Bible that there is almost no point in having it sit next to the Book of Mormon. You should try reading the entire Bible, if only to realize that you are violating almost everything that it says.
It is not a contradiction. It is Another Testament. I have not read the entire Bible, something I do need to do. But I have read much of it, and most of the New Testament. I do not see that I am "violating almost everything that it says". Honestly, they mesh quite well.
6. Joe Smith was dim-witted. His Book of Mormon is a terrible farce of a book, written with no skill, repeating phrases from the King James Bible and garbling nearly all of them, and so riddled with errors and sentence fragments that it's been revised and revised and revised. It doesn't take a genius to write the Book of Mormon. Here, let me show you:
And it came to pass, that Jophim said to Jophiriah, his son, "Take thee thine oxen and scrumbles and cattle and goest thou unto the land of the Morriphi, and when thou arrivest, tell them that the LORD sends His wrath upon them, and take thou then their land from them. And it came to pass that Jophiriah took his oxen and scrumbles and cattle and went up to the land of the Morriphi, and he found there Cordiah, high priest of the Morriphi...
Congratulations, you have managed a verse.
Yes, I did just skip the latter part of your post. I don't see the point when discussion hits this level of hostility. This is the point where we settle down and yell at each other. I will keep those books in mind.
I will comment on one part:
...All the way up until a rightly angry mob took justice into their own hands...
This is wrong. He had done nothing to make them a "rightly" angry mob. Angry mobs have stoned and killed prophets before, and they are not "right".
"And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed; who can't believe the emperor is dressed"~Fastball
2-7-1
2-7-1
Mormons
03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM
- 2374 Views
Questions.
03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM
- 1125 Views
Re: Questions.
03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM
- 1087 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk.
03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM
- 1021 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM*
03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM
- 632 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM*
03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM
- 578 Views
Nope.
04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM
- 968 Views
there's no real point to it
04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
- 1966 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones
04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
- 936 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?"
03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM
- 1034 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM*
03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM
- 567 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM*
03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
- 581 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities...
03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM
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Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible?
04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
- 975 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name.
04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM
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I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there
03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM
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Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM*
03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM
- 474 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him.
03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM
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Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM*
04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM
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Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM*
04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM
- 478 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing...
04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM
- 802 Views
That is hilarious.
04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM
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Goodness..
04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM
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Re:
04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM
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OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly
04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM
- 614 Views
Re: Also.
04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM
- 655 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM*
04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM
- 599 Views
He's doing it on purpose though.
04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM
- 713 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM
- 602 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM
- 628 Views
*sigh* to all of you above....
04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM
- 637 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
- 1116 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though
03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM
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We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed.
03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM
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That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however.
03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM
- 973 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying
04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM
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The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's)
03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM
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We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God.
04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM
- 1043 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM
- 1207 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex.
04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM
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Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
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Woah nelly.
04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM
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I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM
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oh well that makes it all better...
04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM
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Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy.
04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM
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I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions.
04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM
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A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine.
04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM
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Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM
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Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one.
05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM
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Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan.
05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM
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I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked
04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
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it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel"
04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM
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It is not NECESSARILY racist.
04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM
- 950 Views
Sure, except ...
04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM
- 978 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
- 845 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian."
04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM
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I think we've had this discussion before.
06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM
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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
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Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism.
07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM
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I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies.
07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM
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Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ
07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM
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Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons.
07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM
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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM
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I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites.
07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM
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Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this.
07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM
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I was just saying there were competing views.
07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM
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Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views.
07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM
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That sounds really nice.
04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM
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Why wait though?
05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM
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So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM
- 512 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon.
05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM
- 960 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one
06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM
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Yeah, that's what I thought.
06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM
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Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head*
04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM
- 777 Views
....i don't know what you look like
04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM
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Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM*
05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
- 647 Views
Off-Topic
05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM
- 906 Views
Hmm
05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM
- 1065 Views
True
05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM
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I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy.
05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM
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Re: Off-Topic
05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM
- 1088 Views
Uhh...
05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM
- 911 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets.
05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM
- 1020 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed.
04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM
- 931 Views