Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
Tom Send a noteboard - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
I could point out some of the countless problems that virtually everyone else has with your faith (the most notable being Joe Smith making up fake gold plates that he said were given to him by God in a language only he could read, making up entire civilizations that never existed and whose existence cannot be proven by one scrap of evidence, pretending to be able to translate Egyptian hieroglyphs and so making a fake "Book of Moses" out of a standard funerary text, rewriting your holy text on a nearly yearly basis to whitewash it - in some cases literally, as in the way black people were accepted in the 1970s - and make it acceptable to your changing ideas, silly ideas like the Adam-God doctrine, and a whole host of other foolishness).
However, let's just take a very simple approach and look at the Nicene Creed, the fundamental affirmation that separates Christians from people who talk about Jesus (like Jehovah's Witnesses). The Creed says (with questions from me interspersed throughout):
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
Can you say this? Do you truly believe in ONE GOD? Did ONE GOD create all that is and ever was? If not, you are not Christians (or Jews or Muslims, for that matter).
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is GOD, that he is the SAME GOD as God the Father, that he is one in Being with the Father and that he was begotten, not made? That is to say, that he was not created by God the Father, that he is eternally existent (as the Gospel of John states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" - this is a direct reference to Christ)? If you do not believe that Christ is God, that He is identical to God the Father and that he is eternally existent, you are not a Christian.
For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
To be Christian is to accept the miracle of the Incarnation, the miracle of the passion and death and the miracle of the Resurrection of Christ. Key to this acceptance is the concept that Christ has saved us by suffering and dying for us, and that this salvation is a gift that God has bestowed upon people. Though I loath to use Protestant terminology, we have been saved by the grace of God, not by our works.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.
Note that implicit in this is the statement that Christ appeared once, and only once, on this Earth, and not to sci-fi white Indians in a North America that had all sorts of technology that real Native Americans never had.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father [Catholics add: and the Son]. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
The Holy Spirit is the third and crucial part of the Trinity of God. It is the expression of God within us and around us. The statement about "the Prophets" should be clarified in the context of the New Testament, which explicitly says that the gift of prophecy has been made unnecessary because Christ is better than, and in place of, any prophets. This is a fundamental dispute between Christians and Muslims because Muhammad is explicitly understood to be a "false prophet". Beware of any angels that purport to speak to you, the Bible says. Either you believe the Bible and Joe Smith was a fraud or agent of evil powers, or you disregard the Bible and are not Christian.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
One baptism, and not performed after death.
Christianity existed in this framework for over 1800 years until a dim-witted con man who made his money "divining" with a dowsing rod and a stupid rock claimed to have spoken to angels and sought to completely change virtually every statement made in the fundamental Christian profession of faith.
So please tell me, why should any Christian consider you to be Christian? Christians can accept you as fellow human beings and honest, decent people, but then again they can do that with anyone from any religion. Why should anyone consider you to be Christian?
However, let's just take a very simple approach and look at the Nicene Creed, the fundamental affirmation that separates Christians from people who talk about Jesus (like Jehovah's Witnesses). The Creed says (with questions from me interspersed throughout):
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
Can you say this? Do you truly believe in ONE GOD? Did ONE GOD create all that is and ever was? If not, you are not Christians (or Jews or Muslims, for that matter).
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is GOD, that he is the SAME GOD as God the Father, that he is one in Being with the Father and that he was begotten, not made? That is to say, that he was not created by God the Father, that he is eternally existent (as the Gospel of John states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" - this is a direct reference to Christ)? If you do not believe that Christ is God, that He is identical to God the Father and that he is eternally existent, you are not a Christian.
For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
To be Christian is to accept the miracle of the Incarnation, the miracle of the passion and death and the miracle of the Resurrection of Christ. Key to this acceptance is the concept that Christ has saved us by suffering and dying for us, and that this salvation is a gift that God has bestowed upon people. Though I loath to use Protestant terminology, we have been saved by the grace of God, not by our works.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.
Note that implicit in this is the statement that Christ appeared once, and only once, on this Earth, and not to sci-fi white Indians in a North America that had all sorts of technology that real Native Americans never had.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father [Catholics add: and the Son]. With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.
The Holy Spirit is the third and crucial part of the Trinity of God. It is the expression of God within us and around us. The statement about "the Prophets" should be clarified in the context of the New Testament, which explicitly says that the gift of prophecy has been made unnecessary because Christ is better than, and in place of, any prophets. This is a fundamental dispute between Christians and Muslims because Muhammad is explicitly understood to be a "false prophet". Beware of any angels that purport to speak to you, the Bible says. Either you believe the Bible and Joe Smith was a fraud or agent of evil powers, or you disregard the Bible and are not Christian.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
One baptism, and not performed after death.
Christianity existed in this framework for over 1800 years until a dim-witted con man who made his money "divining" with a dowsing rod and a stupid rock claimed to have spoken to angels and sought to completely change virtually every statement made in the fundamental Christian profession of faith.
So please tell me, why should any Christian consider you to be Christian? Christians can accept you as fellow human beings and honest, decent people, but then again they can do that with anyone from any religion. Why should anyone consider you to be Christian?
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Mormons
03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM
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Questions.
03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM
- 1125 Views
Re: Questions.
03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM
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I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk.
03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM
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Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM*
03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM*
03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM
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Nope.
04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM
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there's no real point to it
04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM
- 1965 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones
04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM
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Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?"
03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM
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There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM*
03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM
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In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM*
03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM
- 581 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities...
03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM
- 1020 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible?
04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM
- 975 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name.
04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM
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I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there
03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM
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Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM*
03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM
- 474 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him.
03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM
- 697 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM*
04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM
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Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM*
04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM
- 478 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing...
04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM
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That is hilarious.
04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM
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Goodness..
04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM
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Re:
04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM
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OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly
04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM
- 614 Views
Re: Also.
04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM
- 654 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM*
04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM
- 598 Views
He's doing it on purpose though.
04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM
- 712 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM
- 602 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay.
04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM
- 627 Views
*sigh* to all of you above....
04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM
- 637 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians.
03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM
- 1116 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though
03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM
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We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed.
03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM
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That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however.
03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM
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I understand what both you and Danny are saying
04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM
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The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's)
03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM
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We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God.
04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM
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If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM
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Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss.
04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM
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Woah nelly.
04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM
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I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM
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Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much?
04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM
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oh well that makes it all better...
04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM
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Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy.
04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM
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I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions.
04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM
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A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine.
04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM
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Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM
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Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one.
05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM
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Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan.
05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM
- 946 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked
04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
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it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel"
04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM
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It is not NECESSARILY racist.
04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM
- 950 Views
Sure, except ...
04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM
- 978 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors...
04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM
- 845 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian."
04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM
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I think we've had this discussion before.
06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM
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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian.
06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
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Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism.
07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM
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I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies.
07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM
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Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ
07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM
- 913 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons.
07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM
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Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM
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I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites.
07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM
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Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this.
07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM
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I was just saying there were competing views.
07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM
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Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views.
07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM
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That sounds really nice.
04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM
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Why wait though?
05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM
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So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM*
05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM
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I really want an answer from a mormon.
05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM
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Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one
06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM
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Yeah, that's what I thought.
06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM
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Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head*
04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM
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....i don't know what you look like
04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM
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Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM*
05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM
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Off-Topic
05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM
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Hmm
05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM
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True
05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM
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I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy.
05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM
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Re: Off-Topic
05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM
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Uhh...
05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM
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The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets.
05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM
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Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed.
04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM
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