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*rudely butts in* Vodalus Send a noteboard - 23/08/2011 04:38:33 AM
In the generation or so since every US president has maintained Nixons policy of ignoring Chinas human rights abuse so American multinationals could reap huge profits opening plants there and closing them here, Chinas economy has flourished at Americas expense .


No. Early support for the Nixon doctrine had everything to do with offshore balancing as a means of giving us a leg up in the Cold War and very little to do with economics. Deng's goal of making China rich--promulgated in '79, I think--was largely ignored by the West at the time. Investment in the 4 original SEZs came mostly from the Chinese diaspora at first and then the Japanese. We were latecomers, but we made up for it in sheer amounts of money later on.

EDIT: Oops. I just now realized you meant since Tiananmen.

Also, you really need to start filling in and out your argument on this whole corporate obsession of yours. China does a lot to make FDIs attractive to multinational corporations. For example, it grants subsidies, creates favorable regulatory policies, constructs supporting infrastructure, might employ government procurement to provide early markets, offers special tax incentives, and lot of other things I could list. Oh, I should add free land (sometimes) and an undervalued currency (huge, that). American companies aren't going there solely to fuck over the working class, which is how your message comes across. America could, and should!, start playing a slightly different game. Recognizing that Ricardo was wrong in many ways would be a start.

Something else to do is realize that economic decisions that in most countries are made based--like our national security and geopolitical decisions--on careful consideration of the objective national interest are, in Amercia, made largely on the basis of lobbying. I know you've got the latter, and perhaps the former as well, but it doesn't show.

There's a lot more to it than just lack of ambition or diligence among natives whose callous and unscrupulous leaders keep them cowed. The strong men hand out plenty of bribes and are rife with corruption, but a lot of that corruption is based on bribes they RECEIVE from multinationals...


Sure, and stability is simply a precondition. Organizational skills, managerial skills, and a social contract of some sort in a capitalist system of some kind are what really count. And a "free market, free trade" system is simply another name for American capitalism, done in a bid to pass it off as objective economic truth.

As to those bribes, did you ever stop to think that plenty of them are demanded by the strongmen?
南無阿弥陀仏!
This message last edited by Vodalus on 23/08/2011 at 04:42:52 AM
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If ever there was a reason to cut greenhouse gas emissions Camilla - 19/08/2011 10:14:00 AM 863 Views
I've seen Start Trek, I know the real threat is you killing whales. snoopcester - 19/08/2011 10:34:08 AM 521 Views
I know Camilla - 19/08/2011 10:36:22 AM 470 Views
You make a fair point snoopcester - 19/08/2011 11:22:53 AM 445 Views
Re: You make a fair point Camilla - 19/08/2011 02:06:05 PM 421 Views
Re: You make a fair point snoopcester - 19/08/2011 02:10:43 PM 419 Views
It's the other other white meat. Joel - 19/08/2011 07:13:19 PM 474 Views
There's so much wrong with that Isaac - 19/08/2011 01:08:57 PM 501 Views
"They don't recycle; kill them all. " Joel - 19/08/2011 07:11:15 PM 496 Views
Very Space Hippy Isaac - 19/08/2011 10:39:10 PM 514 Views
It's still debatable whether we've abandoned the evolutionary ladder. Joel - 19/08/2011 11:16:58 PM 590 Views
You'll welcome to debate that with a biologist, it's not my specialty or interest Isaac - 20/08/2011 04:46:43 AM 545 Views
I've seen a lot of mainstream biologists suggest human evolution may be mostly mental now. Joel - 21/08/2011 11:32:48 AM 562 Views
Neither of us are biologists though and it's not really relveant anyway Isaac - 21/08/2011 01:21:06 PM 505 Views
I'm not ignoring it, just wondering why over half the planet ignores it and lives in misery. Joel - 21/08/2011 01:55:53 PM 520 Views
If you have occassion to spend time in those places you'll know why Isaac - 21/08/2011 02:38:44 PM 450 Views
How does literal mud huts as the norm respresent living standards rising "a lot". Joel - 22/08/2011 12:29:35 AM 570 Views
You seem to have cherry-picked what you wanted to hear out of my comments Isaac - 22/08/2011 01:07:10 AM 342 Views
"It's a stability thing, not a Western greed thing" seemed to encapsulate your comments. Joel - 22/08/2011 03:10:17 PM 479 Views
Only if you really cherry pick them Isaac - 23/08/2011 02:48:08 AM 492 Views
This seems to have descended into an insoluble partisan debate. Joel - 23/08/2011 07:43:07 PM 554 Views
You're the one who dragged it to that Isaac - 23/08/2011 08:10:03 PM 468 Views
Did I? Joel - 25/08/2011 10:18:29 PM 461 Views
*rudely butts in* Vodalus - 23/08/2011 04:38:33 AM 535 Views
American companies don't go to China SOLELY to screw the working class, no;that's largely incidental Joel - 25/08/2011 08:03:05 PM 583 Views
we should abdon the myth of the evolutionary ladder random thoughts - 20/08/2011 11:49:35 PM 384 Views
Probably; as discussed in Brams thread it should never be seen as predictive, let alone prophetic. Joel - 21/08/2011 11:55:09 AM 493 Views
Well, for this context I think the use is okay Isaac - 21/08/2011 11:59:19 AM 464 Views
That's an interesting point about the NEED for fossil fuels as a stepping stone to advanced culture. Joel - 21/08/2011 12:33:59 PM 562 Views
Not a need, just an edge Isaac - 21/08/2011 02:06:23 PM 378 Views
There's industrialization and then there's industrialization. Joel - 22/08/2011 12:53:35 AM 739 Views
If you were more familiar with engineering you'd not say something like that Isaac - 22/08/2011 01:53:33 AM 735 Views
I dispute that industrialization is primarily about non-agricultural production. Joel - 22/08/2011 03:10:19 PM 642 Views
Well you can argue that with a dictionary I suppose Isaac - 23/08/2011 03:50:52 AM 500 Views
I'm not above that, but the dictionary definitions I've found are disappointingly self-referential. Joel - 24/08/2011 02:25:21 AM 428 Views
That tends to be the case, it is a kinda vague term outside of specific context Isaac - 24/08/2011 09:12:19 AM 588 Views
Tends to moot that part of the debate though. Joel - 26/08/2011 12:31:21 AM 600 Views
Re: Tends to moot that part of the debate though. Isaac - 26/08/2011 05:52:59 PM 759 Views
Re: Tends to moot that part of the debate though. Joel - 28/08/2011 09:44:52 AM 543 Views
yes I was just jumping into the middle of the discussion. random thoughts - 22/08/2011 03:03:49 PM 423 Views
and we wonder why so many people ignore "scientist" random thoughts - 19/08/2011 01:17:38 PM 519 Views
Think it's better to ignore "reporters on a slow news day," to be honest *NM* beetnemesis - 19/08/2011 02:38:23 PM 192 Views
Or even acquire a sense of humour. *NM* Camilla - 19/08/2011 08:36:07 PM 214 Views
That was the City of Pearl series by Karen Traviss Aeryn - 19/08/2011 02:04:51 PM 485 Views
Re: That was the City of Pearl series by Karen Traviss Camilla - 19/08/2011 02:06:27 PM 443 Views
Hypothetical aliens are perfectly wise aerocontrols - 19/08/2011 06:24:13 PM 433 Views
You may be confusing aliens with God. Joel - 19/08/2011 07:08:01 PM 458 Views
Not confused aerocontrols - 19/08/2011 11:41:56 PM 476 Views
It's a an amusing disconnect to watch. Joel - 20/08/2011 12:25:00 AM 472 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 19/08/2011 08:36:28 PM 560 Views
So, basically, we're the poor white trash of the universe. Joel - 19/08/2011 07:06:23 PM 519 Views
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