I hate to cite wiki as wonderful source but sentence 1 for industrialization is: Industrialisation (or industrialization) is the process of social and economic change that transforms a human group from an agrarian society into an industrial one
And just a reminder it is okay to delete our prior comments in whole or part, when it only happens on my end and I skip a deletion I end up getting these messages back from you that a virtually impossible to reply to with wads and wads of prior comments in them.
Using my own prior definition that's in response to, the Hanseatic League did not go from having the vast majority of their pop doing agri to a small minority doing it. The great cities with their industries of that era were a tiny fraction of the populace... I don't see how this contradicts my point either since the lives, rights, etc of the people in those towns were utterly different than those of serfs living a few miles away, essentially just representing what small pockets of industrialization do, those town and cities had vastly more influence person for person than the average man did.
I don't know what you base that statement off of. There have been plenty of wood burning engines and cars that run off them. It's actually pretty straightforward to convert a car to run off of wood and get around a mile a pound of wood as opposed to about 2-4 miles a pound of gas. The only reason the old wood burning cars tended to have short mileage was because they were all emergency conversions kits developed for pre-existing vehicles in areas and times where long drives weren't common and firewood was, and you could just load extra wood into your trunk, it's not like it need special storage. Like I said, I am not responsible for your lack of familiarity with how engines and other tech actually work. Using a good selection, something like hybrid poplar that can sustainable produce a few tons of wood per acre per year, one can run a wood burning car the usual 10-12,000 miles a year off a couple acres, similar to what's necessary to heat a home. It's not ideal but it is doable, like the $5 and $50 hammers ... for the record you can also make plastics out of wood.
You could run a helicopter off firewood too, it just wouldn't be as good, though handy if you're surveying forested land perhaps. You know that ALICE rocket fuel is actually made out of aluminum and ice right? And that most of our rockets run off hydrogen and oxygen, not crude oil? If it burns, it can do the job, ultimately the best fuel for rockets is the one that produces the most thrust per pound, not the cheapest, oil is cheap, it is not a super-fuel. Most model rockets run off sugar and potassium nitrate (or niter) not coal or oil.
You can always 'take it with you' if you have to, you spin the energy into fly wheels or charge batteries with it.
Yes, so significantly that travel between even close stars in under a century is only possible if you either have and absurdly high energy to mass fuel (fusion or antimatter) or you don't carry fuel (laser sails), it doesn't matter if you're using coal, ethanol, or firewood to drive your economy they are all orders of magnitude to small to do the job.
A minor issue, as fast as the escape velocity of a star tends to be, it's a pitifully tiny amount compared to the speeds necessary to carry out space travel on anything not resembling a geological timescale.
Decelerating isn't a big issue, the matter around an alien star all moves fairly close to it's own speed, if you've got a big sail of dumb cheap material you just spread it and allow micro collisions with all the local gas to slow you, that's how theoretical light sail ships work, you shove them with lasers until you get the right speed, they retract their sails, then reopen them near their destination to brake. Seeing as most of the local material will tend to already be doing a nice orbit around the star, you can still use gravitational assist or slingshot pretty effectively too. The sail would also get significant braking force from the solar illumination coming from the approaching star. Even a more conventional 'fueled' ship would probably use this.
If you're using fusion, as fueling off gas giants implies, the energy needed to remove hydrogen from the gravity well is pretty tiny compared to what it will produce and is expended during topping off your tanks so you'll already have paid your energy bill. If you're running of methane and straight chemical burn of it, you'd probably want to go for a very high orbit, using a hollow tether to pump fuel up, with your height limited by the tensile strength of the cord, same as a space elevator.
Well, as I've said, I can't see a civilization choosing not to use fossils fuels if they had them available, they're handy in the same way a bunch of half rotted furniture inside a castle in the forest is handier as firewood than all those trees but not necessary. Theoretically a culture might develop that viewed black rock or fluid as 'evil', buried by the gods in Hades where it occasionally seeps up to ooze into men's hearts, in which case even when they know it's handy they might avoid using it for the same reason we get queasy about using insects or fecal matter as food sources or all the queasiness that used to be and to some degree still does surround organ transplants. Our first useful medical nanotech is likely to use viruses in some fashion, it will take some selling to get a lot of people comfortable with their docs come in and saying "I'm going to inject you with this big hypodermic full of viral material to cure you" if vaccines are any guide. One doesn't necessarily overcome such things, if the chemical model of a specific hydrocarbon happened to coincidentally look identical to their symbol for the Evil God of Fire and Greed, for instance, their own green zealots would probably have a pretty easily sale convincing people not to use it. Absent those factors, or maybe if the had good computers before a fossil fuel economy got going and had discovered AGW and it was, or they thought it was, just as bad as we tend to assume, I can't really see anyone bypassing a fossil fuel economy if they're available to be used.
And just a reminder it is okay to delete our prior comments in whole or part, when it only happens on my end and I skip a deletion I end up getting these messages back from you that a virtually impossible to reply to with wads and wads of prior comments in them.
Were that the case the Hanseatic League would've begun the Industrial Revolution, because the cottage industries of Medieval towns were primarily non-agricultural as well;
Using my own prior definition that's in response to, the Hanseatic League did not go from having the vast majority of their pop doing agri to a small minority doing it. The great cities with their industries of that era were a tiny fraction of the populace... I don't see how this contradicts my point either since the lives, rights, etc of the people in those towns were utterly different than those of serfs living a few miles away, essentially just representing what small pockets of industrialization do, those town and cities had vastly more influence person for person than the average man did.
the difference came with mechanization in the form of things like the steam engine you referenced. At that point compact high yield energy sources became vital; yes, wood can run steam engines but, as I said at the outset, if you try to run a car off the amount of wood that will a gas tank you'll be lucky to make it to the nearest gas station.
I don't know what you base that statement off of. There have been plenty of wood burning engines and cars that run off them. It's actually pretty straightforward to convert a car to run off of wood and get around a mile a pound of wood as opposed to about 2-4 miles a pound of gas. The only reason the old wood burning cars tended to have short mileage was because they were all emergency conversions kits developed for pre-existing vehicles in areas and times where long drives weren't common and firewood was, and you could just load extra wood into your trunk, it's not like it need special storage. Like I said, I am not responsible for your lack of familiarity with how engines and other tech actually work. Using a good selection, something like hybrid poplar that can sustainable produce a few tons of wood per acre per year, one can run a wood burning car the usual 10-12,000 miles a year off a couple acres, similar to what's necessary to heat a home. It's not ideal but it is doable, like the $5 and $50 hammers ... for the record you can also make plastics out of wood.
If all you want to do on your island is mill enough of the grain you grow to feed yourself and your family a tidal mill is obviously a superior return for your effort than mining coal you don't need to run that mill. If you want to fly the chopper that brought you there back to the mainland, you better start prospecting and building a refracting tower, because if you try to load it up with enough wood to do the job you won't get off the ground. MAYBE you could do it with ethanol (ironically, the first cars were DESIGNED to burn ethanol as well as octane), but I rather doubt it; fighting gravity is a constant battle in which your fuels weight makes it a mixed blessing.
You could run a helicopter off firewood too, it just wouldn't be as good, though handy if you're surveying forested land perhaps. You know that ALICE rocket fuel is actually made out of aluminum and ice right? And that most of our rockets run off hydrogen and oxygen, not crude oil? If it burns, it can do the job, ultimately the best fuel for rockets is the one that produces the most thrust per pound, not the cheapest, oil is cheap, it is not a super-fuel. Most model rockets run off sugar and potassium nitrate (or niter) not coal or oil.
Geothermal seems a lot more plausible than nuclear to me, but you can't take it with you (that's always the rub with geothermal).
You can always 'take it with you' if you have to, you spin the energy into fly wheels or charge batteries with it.
All the issues about compact high yield energy sources increase significantly when we start talking about space travel;
Yes, so significantly that travel between even close stars in under a century is only possible if you either have and absurdly high energy to mass fuel (fusion or antimatter) or you don't carry fuel (laser sails), it doesn't matter if you're using coal, ethanol, or firewood to drive your economy they are all orders of magnitude to small to do the job.
first you have to get out of the planetary gravity well, and for interstellar travel you then have to get out of the stellar gravity well.
A minor issue, as fast as the escape velocity of a star tends to be, it's a pitifully tiny amount compared to the speeds necessary to carry out space travel on anything not resembling a geological timescale.
Unless you plan on using a gravity whip at the end,
Decelerating isn't a big issue, the matter around an alien star all moves fairly close to it's own speed, if you've got a big sail of dumb cheap material you just spread it and allow micro collisions with all the local gas to slow you, that's how theoretical light sail ships work, you shove them with lasers until you get the right speed, they retract their sails, then reopen them near their destination to brake. Seeing as most of the local material will tend to already be doing a nice orbit around the star, you can still use gravitational assist or slingshot pretty effectively too. The sail would also get significant braking force from the solar illumination coming from the approaching star. Even a more conventional 'fueled' ship would probably use this.
you'll probably want to keep enough fuel to brake with when you get wherever you're going (though several forms of propulsion do offer the option of letting you use scoops on the nearest gas giant, but then you need a way to carry those scoops out of the well along with your crew, life support and engine).
If you're using fusion, as fueling off gas giants implies, the energy needed to remove hydrogen from the gravity well is pretty tiny compared to what it will produce and is expended during topping off your tanks so you'll already have paid your energy bill. If you're running of methane and straight chemical burn of it, you'd probably want to go for a very high orbit, using a hollow tether to pump fuel up, with your height limited by the tensile strength of the cord, same as a space elevator.
If a civilization can reach that point without fossil fuels they can probably find a non-fossil fuel alternative (after all, we've never used fossil fuels for space travel, and the fuel we DO use isn't ultimately energy efficient, it's just that the energy cost of electrolysis in FL doesn't directly impact fuel consumption on the shuttle), but it's hard to imagine many scenarios where they COULD reach that point without fossil fuels. That may just be a limitation of my imagination, but either way it's started me thinking, belatedly or not.
Well, as I've said, I can't see a civilization choosing not to use fossils fuels if they had them available, they're handy in the same way a bunch of half rotted furniture inside a castle in the forest is handier as firewood than all those trees but not necessary. Theoretically a culture might develop that viewed black rock or fluid as 'evil', buried by the gods in Hades where it occasionally seeps up to ooze into men's hearts, in which case even when they know it's handy they might avoid using it for the same reason we get queasy about using insects or fecal matter as food sources or all the queasiness that used to be and to some degree still does surround organ transplants. Our first useful medical nanotech is likely to use viruses in some fashion, it will take some selling to get a lot of people comfortable with their docs come in and saying "I'm going to inject you with this big hypodermic full of viral material to cure you" if vaccines are any guide. One doesn't necessarily overcome such things, if the chemical model of a specific hydrocarbon happened to coincidentally look identical to their symbol for the Evil God of Fire and Greed, for instance, their own green zealots would probably have a pretty easily sale convincing people not to use it. Absent those factors, or maybe if the had good computers before a fossil fuel economy got going and had discovered AGW and it was, or they thought it was, just as bad as we tend to assume, I can't really see anyone bypassing a fossil fuel economy if they're available to be used.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
If ever there was a reason to cut greenhouse gas emissions
19/08/2011 10:14:00 AM
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I've seen Start Trek, I know the real threat is you killing whales.
19/08/2011 10:34:08 AM
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I know
19/08/2011 10:36:22 AM
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You make a fair point
19/08/2011 11:22:53 AM
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There's so much wrong with that
19/08/2011 01:08:57 PM
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"They don't recycle; kill them all. "
19/08/2011 07:11:15 PM
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Very Space Hippy
19/08/2011 10:39:10 PM
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It's still debatable whether we've abandoned the evolutionary ladder.
19/08/2011 11:16:58 PM
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You'll welcome to debate that with a biologist, it's not my specialty or interest
20/08/2011 04:46:43 AM
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I've seen a lot of mainstream biologists suggest human evolution may be mostly mental now.
21/08/2011 11:32:48 AM
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Neither of us are biologists though and it's not really relveant anyway
21/08/2011 01:21:06 PM
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I'm not ignoring it, just wondering why over half the planet ignores it and lives in misery.
21/08/2011 01:55:53 PM
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If you have occassion to spend time in those places you'll know why
21/08/2011 02:38:44 PM
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How does literal mud huts as the norm respresent living standards rising "a lot".
22/08/2011 12:29:35 AM
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You seem to have cherry-picked what you wanted to hear out of my comments
22/08/2011 01:07:10 AM
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"It's a stability thing, not a Western greed thing" seemed to encapsulate your comments.
22/08/2011 03:10:17 PM
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Only if you really cherry pick them
23/08/2011 02:48:08 AM
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This seems to have descended into an insoluble partisan debate.
23/08/2011 07:43:07 PM
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*rudely butts in*
23/08/2011 04:38:33 AM
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American companies don't go to China SOLELY to screw the working class, no;that's largely incidental
25/08/2011 08:03:05 PM
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we should abdon the myth of the evolutionary ladder
20/08/2011 11:49:35 PM
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Probably; as discussed in Brams thread it should never be seen as predictive, let alone prophetic.
21/08/2011 11:55:09 AM
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Well, for this context I think the use is okay
21/08/2011 11:59:19 AM
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That's an interesting point about the NEED for fossil fuels as a stepping stone to advanced culture.
21/08/2011 12:33:59 PM
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Not a need, just an edge
21/08/2011 02:06:23 PM
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There's industrialization and then there's industrialization.
22/08/2011 12:53:35 AM
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If you were more familiar with engineering you'd not say something like that
22/08/2011 01:53:33 AM
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I dispute that industrialization is primarily about non-agricultural production.
22/08/2011 03:10:19 PM
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Well you can argue that with a dictionary I suppose
23/08/2011 03:50:52 AM
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I'm not above that, but the dictionary definitions I've found are disappointingly self-referential.
24/08/2011 02:25:21 AM
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That tends to be the case, it is a kinda vague term outside of specific context
24/08/2011 09:12:19 AM
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Tends to moot that part of the debate though.
26/08/2011 12:31:21 AM
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and we wonder why so many people ignore "scientist"
19/08/2011 01:17:38 PM
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Think it's better to ignore "reporters on a slow news day," to be honest *NM*
19/08/2011 02:38:23 PM
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Hypothetical aliens are perfectly wise
19/08/2011 06:24:13 PM
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You may be confusing aliens with God.
19/08/2011 07:08:01 PM
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