That's an interesting point about the NEED for fossil fuels as a stepping stone to advanced culture.
Joel Send a noteboard - 21/08/2011 12:33:59 PM
Evolution is the affect of natural selection and like it or not we are part of nature. The actions and behaviors of birds affect how they evolve and the actions and behaviors of humans affects how we evolve. Evolution isn't a ladder where some creature are higher than others it is simple the result of selection. There is a real question about how our technology will affect our evolution but if we select for dumb and lazy then that is evolution as just as much as selecting for fast and smart.
We're really discussing how probable it is for a large brained organism to develop for which complex language is feasible, since that's the most obvious route to technology. If we consider that the nominal top of ladder after which random traits and mutation tend to take orders of magnitude longer to produce useful traits than innovation does... like developing coats and houses as opposed to mutating thicker fur... I think we can meaningful use the concept. The threads not really about evolution so bogging down on it doesn't achieve much. Though honestly I think Aerocontrols gave the best criticism of the article thus far, I brought up evolutionary ladder just as a reminder that the more obvious routes to an a species with a tech culture are not likely to be incredibly harmonious and peaceful.
The core point I was trying to get at was that a tech culture would tend to lean toward applauding efficiency and likely in the context of increasing their own numbers and improving their lot, since they'd naturally tend to be survival oriented and that's basically what tech is for, the conscious application of knowledge to do what otherwise is only achieved by thousands of generation of slow selection for beneficial mutation. I could see certain tendencies to trend toward certain ethical systems, such as a value for intelligence or creativity, but I think it's a big stretch to assume effective militant environmentalism would be the norm. Mostly though, I can't really see anyone getting to even the low end of spacefaring without having used fossil fuels at some point, since they'd be virtually inevitable to be around and give a big leg up to whichever part of the civilization decided to use them, making it a dubious proposition they'd turn xenocidal on anyone using them, except under the 'interstellar prick' clause where it's just a cheap excuse to wipe out possible competition... in which case their alleged moral superiority seems fairly irrelevant. One also can't hep but point out that the theoretical space hippies would apparently place great value on the diversity of life, which would make truly massive efforts at interstellar acts of genocide seem rather out of character.
I'm not aware (perhaps because I'm an Earthling ) of any other non-nuclear energy source nearly as compact. You'd need to carry around a small forest to give a car as much energy through wood as it gets from octane, and then you're into the classic fuel/mass ratios on which aero has probably spent a lot more time than he'd like. Then there's plastics; the plastics revolution would probably have been impossible without an existing petrochemical industry, and then we'd have been forced to make everything on our spacecraft out of generally much heavier and harder to work metal. A civilization might be able to get by without fossil fuels if they went straight to nuclear fission (or fusion), but the idea of achieving safe, efficient and commercially available nuclear power (let alone something like matter/anti-matter energy) without a fairly well developed knowledge of hydrocarbon chemistry seems patently absurd. And they'd still probably need plastics to get very far in space (though I suppose with enough nuclear fuel they could synthesize plastics without caring how inefficient it is).
What makes it interesting is that fossil fuels are just that: They aren't even possible except places where a large amount of biomass has existed for a very long time. At the risk of anthrocentrism, the rather logical argument that a fossil fuel phase is necessary to develop interstellar technology means that even without the time it takes for natural selection to produce a species with that much intelligence it would still only be possible on a planet where life had existed in ample supply for millions of years. It might not take as long on a much larger terrestrial planet that has more gravity, mass and pressure to compress the biomass, but you'd still need the biomass itself. Just another factor for the Fermi Paradox equation, I suppose....
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
If ever there was a reason to cut greenhouse gas emissions
19/08/2011 10:14:00 AM
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I've seen Start Trek, I know the real threat is you killing whales.
19/08/2011 10:34:08 AM
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I know
19/08/2011 10:36:22 AM
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You make a fair point
19/08/2011 11:22:53 AM
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There's so much wrong with that
19/08/2011 01:08:57 PM
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"They don't recycle; kill them all. "
19/08/2011 07:11:15 PM
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Very Space Hippy
19/08/2011 10:39:10 PM
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It's still debatable whether we've abandoned the evolutionary ladder.
19/08/2011 11:16:58 PM
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You'll welcome to debate that with a biologist, it's not my specialty or interest
20/08/2011 04:46:43 AM
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I've seen a lot of mainstream biologists suggest human evolution may be mostly mental now.
21/08/2011 11:32:48 AM
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Neither of us are biologists though and it's not really relveant anyway
21/08/2011 01:21:06 PM
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I'm not ignoring it, just wondering why over half the planet ignores it and lives in misery.
21/08/2011 01:55:53 PM
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If you have occassion to spend time in those places you'll know why
21/08/2011 02:38:44 PM
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How does literal mud huts as the norm respresent living standards rising "a lot".
22/08/2011 12:29:35 AM
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You seem to have cherry-picked what you wanted to hear out of my comments
22/08/2011 01:07:10 AM
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"It's a stability thing, not a Western greed thing" seemed to encapsulate your comments.
22/08/2011 03:10:17 PM
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Only if you really cherry pick them
23/08/2011 02:48:08 AM
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This seems to have descended into an insoluble partisan debate.
23/08/2011 07:43:07 PM
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*rudely butts in*
23/08/2011 04:38:33 AM
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American companies don't go to China SOLELY to screw the working class, no;that's largely incidental
25/08/2011 08:03:05 PM
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we should abdon the myth of the evolutionary ladder
20/08/2011 11:49:35 PM
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Probably; as discussed in Brams thread it should never be seen as predictive, let alone prophetic.
21/08/2011 11:55:09 AM
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Well, for this context I think the use is okay
21/08/2011 11:59:19 AM
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That's an interesting point about the NEED for fossil fuels as a stepping stone to advanced culture.
21/08/2011 12:33:59 PM
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Not a need, just an edge
21/08/2011 02:06:23 PM
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There's industrialization and then there's industrialization.
22/08/2011 12:53:35 AM
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If you were more familiar with engineering you'd not say something like that
22/08/2011 01:53:33 AM
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I dispute that industrialization is primarily about non-agricultural production.
22/08/2011 03:10:19 PM
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Well you can argue that with a dictionary I suppose
23/08/2011 03:50:52 AM
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I'm not above that, but the dictionary definitions I've found are disappointingly self-referential.
24/08/2011 02:25:21 AM
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That tends to be the case, it is a kinda vague term outside of specific context
24/08/2011 09:12:19 AM
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Tends to moot that part of the debate though.
26/08/2011 12:31:21 AM
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and we wonder why so many people ignore "scientist"
19/08/2011 01:17:38 PM
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Think it's better to ignore "reporters on a slow news day," to be honest *NM*
19/08/2011 02:38:23 PM
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Hypothetical aliens are perfectly wise
19/08/2011 06:24:13 PM
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You may be confusing aliens with God.
19/08/2011 07:08:01 PM
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