First, NS is always specific in nature, meaning there is always a selection pressure. There has never been a case where natural selection doesn’t involve specific selection. It is intrinsic to NS. Take the guppies experiment without predators. The new selection pressure is now sex. Get rid of sex and the selection pressure might be how fast one can convert nutrients, take that away and there will be something else. There is never a static system (which you seem to imply there is) where specific selection is not on-going.
Second, (I use this phrase loosely) we can not know the mind of nature. To expand on that, it is impossible to know what selection pressure will be greatest each season. We can only evaluate specific traits on a per period basis under certain conditions. We can then use those results to make assumptions on the whole and provide evidence for theories. This is the very nature of science. By your line of reasoning all of science is tautology due to the nature of the universe.
Second, (I use this phrase loosely) we can not know the mind of nature. To expand on that, it is impossible to know what selection pressure will be greatest each season. We can only evaluate specific traits on a per period basis under certain conditions. We can then use those results to make assumptions on the whole and provide evidence for theories. This is the very nature of science. By your line of reasoning all of science is tautology due to the nature of the universe.
Both your objections are true, and I agree. If NS is explained in this way it is not a tautology.
But this line of reasoning is also anticipated by the author who's views I'm not testing.
His responce was that this line of argument leads to a definition of 'fitness' (though you did not use this word here, so maybe I should say 'selection criteria'

Point is: there is always a selection criteria as you point out. Once you take away one selection criteria there will be another and another and another, but it is very hard, if not impossible to predict beforhand which criteria will have the upper hand once the most obvious ones are taken away.
He compares it to astrology where the stars always predict the future. If not the stars, the season, if not the season, the positions of the planets, if not the planets, the moons of the planets, or the cyclical period of the sun or whatever.
How to choose from all of these? Take a single example and find the cause.
How to choose on what basis nature selects today? Take a slingle example and you'll find the cause.
It is fundamentally untestable when applied to nature as a whole since the criteria for selections are explained to be "very complicated" and "virtually inpredictable" and hence meta (beond) phycical.
Natural selection
06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM
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selection for suitability
06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM
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Thanks for your responce
06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
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I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it:
06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM
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Just a question
06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM
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Yes it can
06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM
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But how?
06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM
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Re: Just a question
06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM
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I'm not sure I understand you
06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM
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All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies.
06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM
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Then it is still a tautology
06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM
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You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations.
06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM
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Maybe...
07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM
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I'm more inclined toward his logic, but possibly toward your conclusions.
09/08/2011 12:45:46 AM
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we can't really know ahead of time what makes a specific trait benefical in that environment
09/08/2011 06:16:02 PM
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As I understand it
06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM
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Better...
06/08/2011 06:36:38 PM
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Did you perhaps mean "beneficial in the environment" rather than "beneficial to the environment"?
06/08/2011 06:34:44 PM
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yes. I did not really phrase that very clearly. *NM*
09/08/2011 06:14:11 PM
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No biggy; from what Bram said, I underestimated how well you were understood anyway.
09/08/2011 06:45:16 PM
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Hmmm... there's some truth to that
06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM
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The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify...
06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM
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The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
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Re: The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM
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I think I know why you don't understand my question.
06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
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How many equation's has Moraine screwed up?
*NM*
06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
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100% I think Moriaine is a very beneficial trait that contributes a lot to the RAFO pool
*NM*
06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
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Re: Natural selection
07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM
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Thanks a lot
07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM
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2 things
07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM
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My best guess
07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM
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Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM
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Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM
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