I think I know why you don't understand my question.
Bramhodoulos Send a noteboard - 06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
Lets grant you have infinite knowledge of genes in all individuals in a population and all there relative and interdependent probability to contribute to the genepool. How would you reconstruct the fitness landscape, given that it is stable?
Or the other way around, what if you would know the landscape perfectly, given that it is stable, how would you evaluate the difference in survival rate of different individuals?
My question is: arn't the two actually the same? Hence, arn't they a tautology?
I don't quite get you here. Assuming a stable fitness landscape is sort of weird, but for the sake of argument, ok. Now, individual survival rates are impossible to assess, but the survival rates of traits should be possible in both cases. However, I am a bit confused here, you take one theory, and then (hypothetically) change what the unknown factor is and try to define that as a tautology? I don't see it. Explain it to me in maths, I know maths.
As for Popper, my problem is not that NS is too complicated to be tested or falsified, my problem is that, even with perfect knowledge it could not be falsified.
I don't quite get you here. If you have perfect knowledge of the fitness landscape and genomes, you'd have a statistical base for predicting an outcome of what will survive, and then you could check to see if your prediction is true on a statistical basis. However, on an individual level, it's still impossible to determine anything... But a statistical falsification would be enough to fit your criterion here, I believe? NS is a statistical model, after all.
If anything NS is too simple to be falsified: it is always true.
Huh. I don't buy it, honestly. Too simple? Nothing with that many factors involved is simple. There are plenty of things which are always true which has falsifiable properties. Go and fall into the sky to check if gravity works. The nature of this beast is that you cannot accurately describe all the factors involved in an ever-changing environment, and that biological systems tend to be complex even in cases of extreme control.
You say you're a math person. That makes sense if I look at what you write.
Let me try to put it this way.
Lets make NS the function f(. Imput are traits, output is probability of survival (or probability of survival increase/decrease).
Now I go into the field and collect data, given the fact that I can.
f(1) -> 17
f(2) -> 3
f(3) -> 3
f(4) -> 99
f(5) -> 0
...
In case you start calculating: I'm giving random numbers.
The point I'm trying to make is this: if you "put in" random traits, the output (probability of survival) will be random.
Now since the output is random, there is no way you can predict what any given new trait will give you. Only afterwards you can say that f( -> something, but never before.
When I say that trait 3 will give a survival benefit of 3 I am right. When I say that f(3) = 3 I'm also right. But all I did was repeating myself.
Now I know that even random functions have their use in math, but the point is that once you have established that certain traits have certain survival benefits, f( does not give the explanation for why trait so-and-so gives so much survival benefit, it only repeats it.
In the same way NS does not explain why the gene pool changes, it only 'puts it in a function'.
Now, saying that there are many factors involved, including a non-stable fitness landscape does not essentially change this this problem. All that does would be:
f(g(h(i(j(k(l(m(n())))))))
And so basically clouding the fact that all these functions combined do give random results.
Hence, it has to be true. It is true. By definition, but therefor it has no explanatory potential.
Natural selection
06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM
- 992 Views
selection for suitability
06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM
- 643 Views
Thanks for your responce
06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
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I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it:
06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM
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Just a question
06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM
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Yes it can
06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM
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But how?
06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM
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Re: Just a question
06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM
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I'm not sure I understand you
06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM
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All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies.
06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM
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Then it is still a tautology
06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM
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You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations.
06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM
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Maybe...
07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM
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I'm more inclined toward his logic, but possibly toward your conclusions.
09/08/2011 12:45:46 AM
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we can't really know ahead of time what makes a specific trait benefical in that environment
09/08/2011 06:16:02 PM
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As I understand it
06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM
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Better...
06/08/2011 06:36:38 PM
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Did you perhaps mean "beneficial in the environment" rather than "beneficial to the environment"?
06/08/2011 06:34:44 PM
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yes. I did not really phrase that very clearly. *NM*
09/08/2011 06:14:11 PM
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No biggy; from what Bram said, I underestimated how well you were understood anyway.
09/08/2011 06:45:16 PM
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Hmmm... there's some truth to that
06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM
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The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify...
06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM
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The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
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Re: The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM
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I think I know why you don't understand my question.
06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
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How many equation's has Moraine screwed up? *NM*
06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
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100% I think Moriaine is a very beneficial trait that contributes a lot to the RAFO pool *NM*
06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
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Re: Natural selection
07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM
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Thanks a lot
07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM
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2 things
07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM
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My best guess
07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM
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Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM
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Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM
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