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I think I know why you don't understand my question. Bramhodoulos Send a noteboard - 06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
Lets grant you have infinite knowledge of genes in all individuals in a population and all there relative and interdependent probability to contribute to the genepool. How would you reconstruct the fitness landscape, given that it is stable?

Or the other way around, what if you would know the landscape perfectly, given that it is stable, how would you evaluate the difference in survival rate of different individuals?

My question is: arn't the two actually the same? Hence, arn't they a tautology?


I don't quite get you here. Assuming a stable fitness landscape is sort of weird, but for the sake of argument, ok. Now, individual survival rates are impossible to assess, but the survival rates of traits should be possible in both cases. However, I am a bit confused here, you take one theory, and then (hypothetically) change what the unknown factor is and try to define that as a tautology? I don't see it. Explain it to me in maths, I know maths.

As for Popper, my problem is not that NS is too complicated to be tested or falsified, my problem is that, even with perfect knowledge it could not be falsified.


I don't quite get you here. If you have perfect knowledge of the fitness landscape and genomes, you'd have a statistical base for predicting an outcome of what will survive, and then you could check to see if your prediction is true on a statistical basis. However, on an individual level, it's still impossible to determine anything... But a statistical falsification would be enough to fit your criterion here, I believe? NS is a statistical model, after all.

If anything NS is too simple to be falsified: it is always true.


Huh. I don't buy it, honestly. Too simple? Nothing with that many factors involved is simple. There are plenty of things which are always true which has falsifiable properties. Go and fall into the sky to check if gravity works. The nature of this beast is that you cannot accurately describe all the factors involved in an ever-changing environment, and that biological systems tend to be complex even in cases of extreme control.


You say you're a math person. That makes sense if I look at what you write.

Let me try to put it this way.
Lets make NS the function f(. Imput are traits, output is probability of survival (or probability of survival increase/decrease).

Now I go into the field and collect data, given the fact that I can.
f(1) -> 17
f(2) -> 3
f(3) -> 3
f(4) -> 99
f(5) -> 0
...

In case you start calculating: I'm giving random numbers.
The point I'm trying to make is this: if you "put in" random traits, the output (probability of survival) will be random.

Now since the output is random, there is no way you can predict what any given new trait will give you. Only afterwards you can say that f( -> something, but never before.

When I say that trait 3 will give a survival benefit of 3 I am right. When I say that f(3) = 3 I'm also right. But all I did was repeating myself.
Now I know that even random functions have their use in math, but the point is that once you have established that certain traits have certain survival benefits, f( does not give the explanation for why trait so-and-so gives so much survival benefit, it only repeats it.

In the same way NS does not explain why the gene pool changes, it only 'puts it in a function'.

Now, saying that there are many factors involved, including a non-stable fitness landscape does not essentially change this this problem. All that does would be:
f(g(h(i(j(k(l(m(n())))))))
And so basically clouding the fact that all these functions combined do give random results.
Hence, it has to be true. It is true. By definition, but therefor it has no explanatory potential.
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