A benefit TO the environment seems like going too far, because that statement itself is an entry into the philosophical, but an increased survival rate is a metric for benefits IN the environment: The greater survival of organisms with a certain trait in a certain environment over that of organisms without it suggests a natural, mechanical and non-directed selection for such traits generally. Without guidance, traits that help an organism in a given environment come to predominate over those that either don't help or even harm organisms, because organisms with helpful traits live longer and breed more than others. The scientific test of the theory is whether we can observe the results it predicts over time: If we do, that's evidence the theory is valid; if not, that's counterevidence (bearing in mind, as always, that evidence does not necessarily reach the level of conclusive proof).
That's just one laymans limited understanding though, so take it for what it's worth; there's a reason I didn't leap up to give my opinion.
That's just one laymans limited understanding though, so take it for what it's worth; there's a reason I didn't leap up to give my opinion.
I think I understood the TO/IN in the way you explain it and your explanation sort of agrees with what LadyLorriane tried to say.
The tautology problem does not go away with your way of explaining it though, since you don't tell us how we "know" what individuals will be selected, before they are selected. Yes, taking in mind that we are dealing with probability, rather than with absolute numbers.
If a new individual is born, even when given all the possible information about it's DNA and it's environment, (and given that this individual does not have an obvious and gigantic disability), how would you determine it's "benefit in the environment" or it's "chances to procreate" before it actually happens? My point is that you can only measure that afterwards and if it can only be measured afterwards, it cannot be predicted or tested.
It can be tested, just not predicted; however, I'd wager most people would say the goal is a description rather than a prediction of the process. That is to say, not to identify which traits are most helpful to their possessors and document their growing prevalence as evidence of natural selection, but to document helpful traits enhancing survival and thereby predominating in future generations as evidence of natural selection. I think what we're dealing with is a truism rather than a tautology, and while the two are very similar, there are critical differences: A truism is a statement of undeniable fact, like "2+2=4"; a tautology is an equivalency masquerading as a comparison, like "2+2 resembles 4".
Natural selection, as I understand it, is the phenomenon of traits enhancing survival predominating over time as they become an increasingly large part of the gene pool, forcing out less useful traits. Organisms with traits enhancing survival are, by definition, more likely to survive and pass on those traits, and those without them are less likely; that's a truism, not a tautology. Identifying such traits specifically is immaterial to verifying the occurrence of that process; in fact, the attempt can actually prejudice it because traits that might initially seem more beneficial can prove otherwise in practice. It's difficult to dispute the occurrence of natural selection as defined above, because it's what we would logically expect and all evidence supports it (again, it's important to note that's not automatically proof, just very compelling evidence). An independent opposing force would almost be required to PREVENT it.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Natural selection
06/08/2011 03:51:26 PM
- 992 Views
selection for suitability
06/08/2011 04:18:51 PM
- 643 Views
Thanks for your responce
06/08/2011 04:41:20 PM
- 762 Views
I can't speak for LadyLorraine and won't try, but here's how I see it:
06/08/2011 06:49:49 PM
- 686 Views
Just a question
06/08/2011 07:18:09 PM
- 690 Views
Yes it can
06/08/2011 07:41:59 PM
- 571 Views
But how?
06/08/2011 07:52:10 PM
- 758 Views
Re: Just a question
06/08/2011 07:49:21 PM
- 780 Views
I'm not sure I understand you
06/08/2011 08:20:44 PM
- 668 Views
All tautologies are truisms, but not all truisms are tautologies.
06/08/2011 09:38:12 PM
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Then it is still a tautology
06/08/2011 09:45:33 PM
- 702 Views
You can know it's beneifical to a particular individual, but it's harder to say for populations.
06/08/2011 10:18:16 PM
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Maybe...
07/08/2011 01:55:54 PM
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I'm more inclined toward his logic, but possibly toward your conclusions.
09/08/2011 12:45:46 AM
- 740 Views
we can't really know ahead of time what makes a specific trait benefical in that environment
09/08/2011 06:16:02 PM
- 813 Views
As I understand it
06/08/2011 06:04:44 PM
- 633 Views
Better...
06/08/2011 06:36:38 PM
- 616 Views
Did you perhaps mean "beneficial in the environment" rather than "beneficial to the environment"?
06/08/2011 06:34:44 PM
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yes. I did not really phrase that very clearly. *NM*
09/08/2011 06:14:11 PM
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No biggy; from what Bram said, I underestimated how well you were understood anyway.
09/08/2011 06:45:16 PM
- 683 Views
Hmmm... there's some truth to that
06/08/2011 06:36:35 PM
- 704 Views
The complexity of the problem makes it all but impossible to falsify...
06/08/2011 08:26:06 PM
- 736 Views
The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 08:38:31 PM
- 737 Views
Re: The questions go deeper
06/08/2011 09:10:32 PM
- 713 Views
I think I know why you don't understand my question.
06/08/2011 09:38:41 PM
- 743 Views
How many equation's has Moraine screwed up? *NM*
06/08/2011 09:45:36 PM
- 306 Views
100% I think Moriaine is a very beneficial trait that contributes a lot to the RAFO pool *NM*
06/08/2011 09:46:54 PM
- 329 Views
Re: Natural selection
07/08/2011 03:00:30 AM
- 714 Views
Thanks a lot
07/08/2011 01:38:39 PM
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2 things
07/08/2011 04:00:35 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 04:33:00 PM
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Re: 2 things
07/08/2011 05:48:26 PM
- 655 Views
My best guess
07/08/2011 06:00:28 PM
- 691 Views
Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:37:58 PM
- 625 Views
Re: My best guess
07/08/2011 06:47:26 PM
- 778 Views