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Also true, but that's just more reason to rescind their control. Joel Send a noteboard - 30/07/2011 03:52:07 PM
Frustration with the status quo is approaching the level where people will begin to demand a third party but the parties are more entrenched now than they were back then and whichever side tries to form a third party first loses because the way the system is set up now the side that holds together would grab all the power. The tea party may not like a lot of the republicans but they damn sure don't want to do anything to empower the left. The same is true for the far left.

If you want to have a third party with influence you have to build from the local governments where the risk and the cost of entry is lower. Odds are still pretty long but least you can have a shot at accomplishing something other than the opposite of what you want. Voting green party in 2012 will just help Perry get to the White House. You have to choose your poison.

Indeed, but sometimes you have to bite the bullet, too. In 2000 Nader hurt Greens badly with their liberal base, but Obama is brutalizing Democrats with them now, because he ran as a populist but has consistently governed (to the extent he HAS governed) as the same old Washington insiders he claimed to oppose. Again I cite polling that as many people thought the healthcare law was too LITTLE as thought it too much; regardless of whether you support public healthcare, a lot of people voted for Obama because he promised it to them, and they (we) feel cheated at least as much by him as by Republicans who at least ADMITTED their opposition.

I agree you have to start locally; First Past the Post allows no alternative, because building a series of local political infrastructures is the only way to get something you can knit together into a national infrastructure. You need the candidates, the campaign workers, the donors and the platform planks; all the things Perot didn't have a decade ago. Unfortunately, part of the problem is that "grassroots organization" can often be a contradiction in terms; as soon as you start grouping and structuring things the bureaucrats and power brokers try to take control of the emerging system that lends itself to that. Ultimately, however, the old saw is really true: The solution to the problems of democracy is more democracy, and a general level of awareness and involvement with the process will prevent the lunatics running the asylum. The real challenge is how everyone can be that aware and involved with the political process itself and still get to work every day to put food on the table.

Yet the people are very disgusted with the status quo right now, and polling on both parties, their candidates and their officeholders consistently reflect that. Strong majorities want a combination of tax hikes and spending reduction to solve the debt problem (which is only a crisis because we won't address it; again, 67% of the debt we owe is to the SS trust fund because for decades we borrowed from it rather than--cut spending and raise taxes, of course). Things are reaching a critical mass, and the debt ceiling could be what unleashes the flood if they don't find a solution (that Republicans and Democrats are distantly aware of the discontent is the only reason they still resolve impasses they let reach crisis level: They don't want to face the reckoning they'll unleash otherwise). However, most of the "solutions" they find these days are just ways for both parties to save face with voters without actually accomplishing anything, which is why the condition of the country has deteriorated so far, to the point voters are increasingly unwilling to tolerate further decline.

I would say IRV is the first step to fixing the problem, because it would give people a chance to vote their conscience and choose real alternatives without guaranteeing their political opponents victory. Instant Runoffs are DESIGNED to avoid the very problem you referenced: Electing a candidate no one wants because the majoritys votes are split between many candidates everyone would prefer. Unfortunately, that's the only reason Republicans and Democrats still get elected, so neither of them want IRV.

Frankly, I don't see a short term solution, unless the ever popular gridlock that's actually a lot of the problem implodes the US government and we start from scratch with neither party. Right now, I'd say the most likely outcome isn't the Tea Party leaving the GOP and giving the Dems default landslides. The most likely outcome, IMHO, is what happened with TRs Progressive Party a century ago: Someone like La Follette leads the NON-Tea Party GOP to the Dems because the Tea Party caucus is SO far right that it 1) has policies the rest of GOP officeholders oppose 2) taints the brand with the more moderate (and rational) general public and 3) makes governing impossible even in a one party environment. If you think it can't happen, remember the people derided as RINOs now are the enduring legacy of TRs Progessive Party nearly a century ago: Republicans so fed up with corporate cronyism they left the party in fact (and sometimes in name) to support Democratic opposition to it. Think about it; the House Speaker is on record that he agrees with and supports the Presidents combined revenue increase/spending cut approach, but can't support it with a VOTE because of the Tea Party. Even when he writes a bill BY HIMSELF it can't pass the chamber HE LEADS until he turns it into CC&B--which makes it DOA anywhere else. Meanwhile, Republicans in the Senate are alarmed both by what that forebodes for the nation and what refusing responsibility before voters will mean to their careers.

That's ultimately not good news for "my" side either, because it means we either get more gridlock, or moderate Republicans bolt to give a majority to Democrats who don't represent me, you or the country any more than their new GOP allies do. It worked a century ago because Dems were still a labor and farming party of the little (white) guy; with labor and farmers pretty much hamstrung now they simply support a different corporate faction.

I think we need IVR so we have more than two choices, but I'm not optimistic it'll happen soon because the two choices we have are keenly aware of what would result. People would vote for minor party candidates secure in the knowledge that it wouldn't help a major party candidate they oppose. Worse, those minor party candidates would get ELECTED as a result, and major party officeholders would be forced to negotiate with them to pass legislation, might even (HORROR!) have to vote for legislation FROM minor parties. We'd end up with coalition government practically overnight and no longer be restricted to policies that either serve the Democrats owners or the Republicans. Of course, the disaster for them would be a mercy to the country and everyone else.
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2nd Quarter GDP at 1.3% - 1st Quarter downgraded to 0.4% - - 29/07/2011 02:31:07 PM 725 Views
...do all your posts have to be about evicting Obama out of the White House? *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:49:36 PM 197 Views
Not all, see the thread about the God Particle below..... - 29/07/2011 02:57:09 PM 499 Views
wasn't that good, sorry *NM* - 29/07/2011 09:28:42 PM 268 Views
you know coming off as cheering that the economy it crap doesn't put you in a good light - 29/07/2011 02:50:24 PM 489 Views
What exactly in my post is "cheering"..... - 29/07/2011 02:56:00 PM 503 Views
well I guess the dancing banna is just your sig - 29/07/2011 02:58:45 PM 453 Views
Yeah, the dancing banana can give that impression, understood - 29/07/2011 03:03:45 PM 538 Views
Why does the Dancing Banana have a cape? *NM* - 29/07/2011 09:33:29 PM 369 Views
On a side note this could be a Quickpoll.. so post a few answers *NM* - 29/07/2011 09:40:54 PM 307 Views
my contibution, to keep the sun off it's back peel *NM* - 29/07/2011 09:50:24 PM 317 Views
I guess it is a super dancing banana! - 30/07/2011 03:22:02 AM 422 Views
Fun Fun *NM* - 30/07/2011 08:00:52 PM 317 Views
when you find me and snoop agreeing on something you might want to look at it *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:59:49 PM 202 Views
Saved me the trouble of responding, to boot. - 29/07/2011 03:36:49 PM 577 Views
well any plan designed to break the control of the two parties - 29/07/2011 03:40:15 PM 512 Views
Neither of the two major partys is integral to America nor vital to its survival. - 29/07/2011 03:59:38 PM 696 Views
I agree but the control the rules and are not going to change the rules if it hurts that control - 29/07/2011 04:45:09 PM 633 Views
Also true, but that's just more reason to rescind their control. - 30/07/2011 03:52:07 PM 583 Views
the tea party as not as far right as you like to belive - 30/07/2011 04:38:40 PM 504 Views
Well, one of us is obviously wrong about that. - 30/07/2011 05:22:14 PM 577 Views
thank god iti s me; - 30/07/2011 06:12:24 PM 578 Views
I'm loving your latest typo. - 30/07/2011 07:19:01 PM 591 Views
Re: I'm loving your latest typo. - 31/07/2011 03:22:21 PM 554 Views
Re: I'm loving your latest typo. - 01/08/2011 05:01:19 AM 794 Views
you are flailing - 01/08/2011 02:52:57 PM 560 Views
No, you are reaching. - 02/08/2011 12:39:24 PM 448 Views
"we both agree that Obama's COLOSSALLY failed at leadership" - 29/07/2011 03:47:48 PM 486 Views
Some things aren't about hippies vs. fascists, and Americas well being should definitely qualify. - 29/07/2011 03:51:03 PM 491 Views
Wow, the stick up your butt has its own stick up its butt..... - 29/07/2011 09:09:20 PM 515 Views
Manners MR.!!! *NM* - 29/07/2011 09:23:38 PM 341 Views
It's all fun and games until the country goes bankrupt. - 30/07/2011 05:23:29 PM 471 Views
The British economy is struggling fairly badly under the Tories - 29/07/2011 02:54:51 PM 532 Views
I think you missed the latest update on that... - 30/07/2011 03:10:27 PM 689 Views
Oh dear - 30/07/2011 03:18:45 PM 459 Views
China - 29/07/2011 05:27:46 PM 755 Views
Re: China - 29/07/2011 05:36:03 PM 492 Views
I was actually thinking about that this morning. - 29/07/2011 05:52:08 PM 584 Views
Another term for Obama and we might end up there! *NM* - 29/07/2011 09:07:46 PM 304 Views

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