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Theoretically; bear in mind that Charles Whitman spent two full hours killing people in the UT tower Joel Send a noteboard - 26/07/2011 12:54:51 AM
or at least made him careful enough that he would have to slow down. I honestly believe that if he had tried this in some place like Galveston someone would have shot him with a rifle or a bow or even run over him with a truck before he was allowed this was allowed to go on this long. Did the outside world have no idea what was going on? Didn't they have some form of security and at least land lines? 90 min is a very long time. Was there realy no one closer than Oslo who could respond? I know parts of Norway can be pretty remote but I don't get impression that this island was all that remote.

The reality is though that at a crowded event that was scheduled to have the prime minster speak the next day a single armed man was allowed to rampage for 90 min killing almost 100 people. That is a failure no matter how you look at it. I obviously don't know enough about the area to know details of what could have been done be the results speak for themselves that more should have been done. I would suspect that in the end we will see a lack of preparedness because they assumed something like this couldn't happen in Norway.

As for disagreeing with out of habit nothing could be further from the truth. Try being right once and I will prove it;)

Despite two armed police officers and multiple civilians firing back at him for much of the time. I've heard SWAT teams were created as a direct response to that incident; Oslo has one--but it was downtown dealing with a bombing of the federal government and multiple suspicious packages found near the scene. It was the equivalent of someone bombing the White House, or Congress, and you can't tell me police response time to a summer camp on a tiny island in the Potomac wouldn't be delayed after that. Utøya is close enough to Oslo that it IS their police force, but far enough outside the city limits to provide an appealing vacation spot--and slow police response times, particularly when they're already dealing with a terrorist attack on the seat of government. Add to that the fact you can only get there by water or air and you have a recipe for disaster if someone can make it out there dressed for war while the whole police force is busy downtown.

Brievik created a very effective diversion to occupy most of the police force for an extended time (as his "instructions" encourage potential followers to do), then traveled to a secluded and densely wooded area to which he gained entry as much because of that diversion as because of his convincingly counterfeited police uniform and ID. Remember, cops don't carry guns here unless they have strong and urgent need, and yes, they had (unarmed party) security on the island; normally they'd NEVER have let him cross, but he claimed to be a policeman coming to secure and protect the area in response to the bombing. He used that same pretext to gather the campers in a building when he arrived, where they were easy prey when he began indiscriminately shooting them. Locals who lived on the shore did, in fact, intervene to help fleeing victims, and were fired at in response. If you honestly think an unprotected man with a deer rifle could take out a guy with an automatic in body armor and heavy woods from half a kilometer away I suppose there's not much I can do to change your mind. Since most of the campers were calling their parents or the real cops instead of locals whose number they just happened to know I find it unlikely that many of them responded much more quickly than the police.

I've had to visit the police several times due to the fact they handle many immigration procedures (in fact, while Americans can stay for up to 90 days without a visa, foreign visitors are required to present their passports at the local police station within days of arrival). As a result that I could only do so between 10 and 2 on certain weekdays, and have joked that the police force here is a Republicans dream of downsized government. That's not to say you can commit a crime with impunity at 3PM (or 3AM), but the police presence is far less; the small TX town where my mom lives (3A school) probably has more cop cars than the third largest city in Norway (population slightly less than Tyler). That's likely to change now. Still and so, the fact remains that if someone successfully eludes capture after setting up a diversion to occupy the bulk of the local police department, then brings convincing police ID, automatic weapons and body armor to a secluded heavily wooded area accessible only by boat or air, he can do a lot of damage very quickly in any country. Again, Brieviks research, planning and implementation was one of the most chilling aspects of this atrocity: It would be very difficult to prevent anywhere except a police state.

Beyond that, if you want to know exactly how far Utøya is from Oslo, do what I did: Go to Googlemaps (or Map Quest, or wherever), type in the names of both locations and hit enter. It's just under 40km, or about 25 miles, and according to Googlemaps a 30-45 minute drive, though that assumes normal highway speeds the police surely exceeded. That takes you to the shore, 500m from which you'll find this. I can only see three BUILDINGS; how many cops do you think they normally need?
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This message last edited by Joel on 26/07/2011 at 12:58:15 AM
  • Edit 1 by Joel on 26/07/2011 at 12:58:15 AM
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Large explosion in Oslo and nearby shootings - 22/07/2011 03:52:56 PM 1888 Views
A bit too convenient for an accident, I'd say. - 22/07/2011 03:54:38 PM 615 Views
I agree - 22/07/2011 03:59:16 PM 612 Views
Why do you care about making a claim? You're not a reporter. - 22/07/2011 04:53:06 PM 618 Views
Because I was making the post to tell people what was happening - 22/07/2011 05:26:11 PM 602 Views
He IS reporting - 22/07/2011 11:46:30 PM 526 Views
Let's not get ridiculous. - 23/07/2011 02:10:26 AM 550 Views
Police in Oslo have confirmed it was a bomb. *NM* - 22/07/2011 04:15:04 PM 514 Views
Not good - two reported dead so far - 22/07/2011 04:23:03 PM 619 Views
Re: Not good - two reported dead so far - 22/07/2011 04:26:15 PM 591 Views
I've long assumed this was the case. - 22/07/2011 04:28:40 PM 553 Views
Ah, I has suspected so - 22/07/2011 04:32:14 PM 509 Views
I thought everyone loved Norway! - 22/07/2011 04:26:25 PM 594 Views
'cept Whales - 22/07/2011 04:31:01 PM 624 Views
Hey, I wouldn't put something like this past Green Peace. - 22/07/2011 04:37:40 PM 557 Views
I would. *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:52:38 PM 529 Views
Your faith is greater than mine then. - 22/07/2011 10:26:54 PM 549 Views
Sounds like you're confusing Greenpeace with PETA. *NM* - 22/07/2011 10:53:18 PM 523 Views
Earth First is more likely. - 22/07/2011 11:14:33 PM 623 Views
And 8-11th century Irish and Brits - 22/07/2011 05:20:07 PM 580 Views
This ain't cool. *NM* - 22/07/2011 04:55:21 PM 568 Views
It is terrible. - 22/07/2011 05:13:24 PM 521 Views
There are allegedly also people firing at the youth camp of the Labour party at an island - 22/07/2011 05:26:29 PM 629 Views
Are Labour the ruling party? - 22/07/2011 05:28:51 PM 562 Views
Yes. One of three. - 22/07/2011 05:33:42 PM 641 Views
That's horrible. - 22/07/2011 05:42:07 PM 571 Views
I hope the perpetrators are made to suffer - 22/07/2011 05:53:38 PM 568 Views
7 confirmed dead, 2 severly injured, several with minor injuries. - 22/07/2011 06:45:32 PM 585 Views
and at least 9 additional dead on Utøya... *NM* - 22/07/2011 09:23:25 PM 532 Views
Utøya was just.... terrible. - 22/07/2011 09:58:18 PM 560 Views
Norwegian papers article, in English: - 22/07/2011 10:51:32 PM 731 Views
so "Youth camp" doesnt mean little kids right? - 22/07/2011 11:05:42 PM 568 Views
I gather 14-18 years old *NM* - 22/07/2011 11:07:37 PM 485 Views
wow.... *NM* - 22/07/2011 11:11:34 PM 502 Views
HS kids, from what I can gather. - 22/07/2011 11:45:30 PM 552 Views
The person arrested is Anders Behring Breivik - 23/07/2011 01:14:58 AM 552 Views
At least 80 dead so far. - 23/07/2011 03:09:38 AM 679 Views
Oh I feel sick - 23/07/2011 03:55:04 AM 598 Views
Yes. *NM* - 23/07/2011 07:25:46 AM 534 Views
Wow, that's horrible *NM* - 23/07/2011 05:55:11 AM 542 Views
“It seems kind of unreal, especially in Norway. This is not something that could happen here.” - 23/07/2011 10:23:48 AM 566 Views
Yeah, but it is quite shocking in such a normally placid country. - 23/07/2011 04:04:04 PM 643 Views
Norwegians cops dont carry guns? - 23/07/2011 08:05:07 PM 567 Views
Re: Norwegians cops dont carry guns? - 23/07/2011 09:01:28 PM 593 Views
It's Europe; guns are a lot more heavily regulated. - 23/07/2011 09:32:15 PM 585 Views
Holy crap - 23/07/2011 11:06:32 AM 573 Views
Sounds like an anarchist, i.e., left-wing nut..... *NM* - 23/07/2011 03:10:55 PM 501 Views
Try Christian fundamentalist - 23/07/2011 04:12:55 PM 561 Views
Eerm, yeah...What Joel said - 23/07/2011 04:40:21 PM 617 Views
There's very few facts for anyone to be working with - 23/07/2011 05:52:26 PM 536 Views
Just having switched off the latest news... - 23/07/2011 06:21:09 PM 532 Views
Re: Just having switched off the latest news... - 23/07/2011 09:01:36 PM 486 Views
Why can't we just call him a wing-nut and agree? - 23/07/2011 07:27:33 PM 651 Views
why cant we call him a terrorist? - 23/07/2011 08:01:33 PM 545 Views
Because terrorist attacks only happens to the US. - 23/07/2011 08:21:05 PM 546 Views
Poes Law, man, Poes Law. - 23/07/2011 10:02:45 PM 509 Views
I'm fine with that; the media here's certainly calling him a terrorist. - 23/07/2011 09:59:15 PM 505 Views
i noticed the Norwegians are calling it a terror attack - 24/07/2011 03:17:53 AM 539 Views
Christian media bias, eh? - 24/07/2011 03:48:22 AM 543 Views
Sorry, new laptop. - 23/07/2011 09:59:15 PM 490 Views
oh, please. *NM* - 23/07/2011 09:09:40 PM 503 Views
My thoughts echo yours. - 23/07/2011 03:54:22 PM 532 Views
The people of Norway are in everyones thoughts and prayers. *NM* - 23/07/2011 12:51:38 PM 524 Views
This is awful, *NM* - 23/07/2011 03:43:37 PM 520 Views
Absolutely tragic. Sick sick person. *NM* - 23/07/2011 03:58:15 PM 464 Views
A victim's account - 23/07/2011 05:40:01 PM 641 Views
By the way - too bad Norway doesn't have the death penalty.....very justified in this case. *NM* - 23/07/2011 08:44:32 PM 483 Views
Very much true - 23/07/2011 09:31:14 PM 545 Views
Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years". - 23/07/2011 09:33:52 PM 611 Views
21 years? Wow, what a stupid system..... *NM* - 23/07/2011 09:41:18 PM 501 Views
Re: Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years". - 23/07/2011 09:43:12 PM 650 Views
Anything less than execution is wrong..... - 23/07/2011 09:52:07 PM 574 Views
By the Grace of God, that's not your call to make. - 23/07/2011 10:06:05 PM 547 Views
92 murders = execution - 23/07/2011 10:09:33 PM 561 Views
I don't think that the Norwegian criminal system is based on that ideal. - 24/07/2011 03:03:42 PM 488 Views
Which almost without exception makes a lot more sense. - 23/07/2011 10:04:48 PM 536 Views
I have a feeling - 24/07/2011 04:08:34 AM 548 Views
Not at all. Luckily, we don't have death penalty - 24/07/2011 09:16:28 AM 606 Views
Right wing terrorism always confused me. - 24/07/2011 04:44:34 AM 576 Views
I don't understand how anyone can be a fascist. *NM* - 24/07/2011 07:15:16 AM 494 Views
I don't understand how any Italian can not be. *NM* - 24/07/2011 01:51:34 PM 565 Views
Cause fascism didn't do much good for Italy? *NM* - 24/07/2011 05:06:34 PM 479 Views
Bahaha yeah except 20 years of peace, prosperity and effective government. - 25/07/2011 12:06:35 AM 526 Views
It's important to distinguish between Roman and modern fascism. - 25/07/2011 03:48:24 AM 563 Views
The problem with that is simple. - 25/07/2011 02:15:38 PM 495 Views
I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you. - 25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM 493 Views
Wikipedia, really? - 25/07/2011 05:07:28 PM 570 Views
Merely for convenience; the things I linked (e.g. blackshirt murder campaigns) are common knowledge. - 25/07/2011 07:00:22 PM 487 Views
Actually yes, he does. - 26/07/2011 03:23:20 AM 509 Views
Actually, I know quite a bit about fascism in Italy - 25/07/2011 08:29:04 AM 616 Views
If you did... - 25/07/2011 02:05:31 PM 409 Views
You're full of it... and apparently you don't know it. *NM* - 25/07/2011 06:40:14 PM 490 Views
Again, use facts... - 26/07/2011 03:24:02 AM 589 Views
I'm too amused by your unfounded accusations of ignorance - 26/07/2011 06:13:42 AM 465 Views
I don't debate with the ignorant. - 26/07/2011 01:43:07 PM 511 Views
My guess is they're viewed as "collaborators". - 24/07/2011 12:05:00 PM 544 Views
Even so. - 24/07/2011 01:55:08 PM 541 Views
Yeah, I can't really explain it; it's insane behavior. - 24/07/2011 04:57:27 PM 518 Views
/ignoring the ridiculous fascism stuff... on the subject of killing your own - 25/07/2011 04:36:01 PM 555 Views
Regardless. - 25/07/2011 05:17:36 PM 521 Views
That's tempting, saying he isn't a "real" or "true" nationalist. - 25/07/2011 09:20:38 PM 607 Views
Well I just don't comptrehend how he could be a "true" or "real" nationalist... - 26/07/2011 03:25:35 AM 545 Views
That's clearly not true - 26/07/2011 10:35:05 AM 504 Views
I'm pretty sure it's against nationalism as anyone defines it. - 26/07/2011 01:43:56 PM 553 Views
See? - 26/07/2011 02:05:09 PM 490 Views
Right, but... - 26/07/2011 10:47:29 PM 570 Views
Yes he is on the far right - 26/07/2011 10:54:06 PM 531 Views
I'm hardly a fanatic. - 27/07/2011 12:23:09 AM 408 Views
You do come across that way here. - 27/07/2011 11:05:26 AM 531 Views
Maybe to you, then again if you want to talk about how people come across on the internet... - 27/07/2011 10:05:39 PM 569 Views
That makes sense - 27/07/2011 11:27:29 PM 516 Views
How would a Nazi killing ONLY aryans be a Nazi? - 28/07/2011 06:27:03 AM 548 Views
Remember how the Nazis killled socialists and other people who disagreed with them? That is how. *NM* - 28/07/2011 07:40:24 AM 474 Views
and don't forget it was how the far left killed the people they did like as well - 28/07/2011 11:47:26 AM 487 Views
Sorry but when was the USSR nationalistic? - 28/07/2011 12:40:46 PM 482 Views
Great Patriotic War ring a bell? - 28/07/2011 06:04:02 PM 493 Views
And how was that nationalistic? - 28/07/2011 08:05:01 PM 491 Views
Can you read? - 28/07/2011 06:02:13 PM 510 Views
The rather famous Night of the Long Knives not ring a bell? - 28/07/2011 10:34:47 AM 484 Views
Again, I said a Nazi who kills ONLY aryans. - 28/07/2011 06:03:00 PM 544 Views
I have no idea why I want to jump into this but I would just point out two things - 28/07/2011 12:46:56 AM 548 Views
Okay that's fair. - 28/07/2011 06:28:57 AM 538 Views
So horrible. *NM* - 24/07/2011 06:24:28 AM 510 Views
Apparently, he plagiarised tehe UNA-bomber in his manifesto - 24/07/2011 02:52:36 PM 552 Views
Wow, that's impressive, in all the worst senses of the word. - 24/07/2011 05:05:24 PM 495 Views
Having read his manifesto and watched his youtube video... - 25/07/2011 01:50:07 AM 525 Views
Oh, so killing people who are NOT HIS OWN would have been ok? *NM* - 25/07/2011 10:38:50 AM 459 Views
Would have been understandable. - 25/07/2011 02:03:31 PM 531 Views
Much as it pains me to say, most of his victims were almost certainly not Christian. - 25/07/2011 07:04:21 PM 535 Views
Again. - 26/07/2011 03:26:51 AM 510 Views
I'm amazed that one person could cause this level of death. - 25/07/2011 05:35:33 AM 535 Views
I too was surprised - 25/07/2011 05:45:10 AM 504 Views
I'm told it takes most of an hour just to DRIVE from Oslo to Utøya. - 25/07/2011 07:14:16 PM 525 Views
galveston wouldnt need police from houston, they have police on the island. - 25/07/2011 09:22:40 PM 519 Views
That's because Galveston is more than 26 acres. - 25/07/2011 09:39:06 PM 570 Views
See below: - 26/07/2011 02:03:27 AM 517 Views
If there were reports that someone was slaughter children? - 25/07/2011 10:18:45 PM 522 Views
A local with a deer rifle vs. a man in combat armor with an automatic rifle and military training? - 25/07/2011 10:36:54 PM 361 Views
yes local, who would have military training as well, could have taken him with a deer rifle - 25/07/2011 11:17:08 PM 567 Views
Theoretically; bear in mind that Charles Whitman spent two full hours killing people in the UT tower - 26/07/2011 12:54:51 AM 584 Views
I really wish they would stop mentioning he was a fan of True Blood *NM* - 25/07/2011 05:47:16 AM 450 Views
In the middle of all this, why is that important to you? *NM* - 25/07/2011 09:04:54 AM 527 Views
its important to me to know why its important enough to mention - 25/07/2011 09:15:11 PM 496 Views
And ego shooter games, as if they were the final trigger *NM* - 25/07/2011 10:40:33 AM 476 Views
And the fact that he was a Eurovision fan - 25/07/2011 11:23:48 AM 525 Views
are political party sponsored youth camps common in Europe? - 25/07/2011 07:13:00 PM 539 Views
It is the labour youth organisation's summer camp - 25/07/2011 09:11:57 PM 527 Views
sorry but that just seems very odd to me - 25/07/2011 10:08:07 PM 515 Views
Re: sorry but that just seems very odd to me - 25/07/2011 10:20:27 PM 522 Views
that would make a big difference - 25/07/2011 10:32:52 PM 521 Views
I think most such organizations have a somewhat older membership - 16-25 or so. - 25/07/2011 10:30:04 PM 510 Views
having children who are passed their teens I still considered teenagers kids - 25/07/2011 10:57:50 PM 515 Views
Yeah, I guess that'd depend on your perspective. - 25/07/2011 11:17:17 PM 505 Views
Re:I know that - 27/07/2011 03:39:47 AM 572 Views
Re: Re:I know that - 27/07/2011 09:04:24 AM 523 Views
Re: He took lives. - 28/07/2011 12:23:43 AM 387 Views
are we really so bored and entrenched that we are debating the motives of a mad man? *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:13:38 PM 499 Views
Quite. *NM* - 26/07/2011 06:03:30 PM 480 Views