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I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you. Joel Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM
Fascism allows for civil liberties, and in fact in Fascist Italy the average citizen had more liberties than one living in the United States (see treatment of Black Americans citizens).

So I'll let you discuss that with the people who spat on Mussolinis corpse when they hung up for public display after his death. I'd suggest telling everyone blackshirts murdered to stop telling lies, but since they're dead, you can't. I suppose the term "sicario del Duce" was just a figurative nickname for Amerigo Dumini, notwithstanding him ACTUALLY assassinating one of Mussolinis political enemies (for which he received an amnesty from il Duce himself). Facts, it is said, are stubborn things, and that Mussolinis fascists routinely committed violence against their fellow Italians (precisely the kind of violence you've repeatedly condemned from Breivik) is well established well documented fact. Of course, the standard rationalization was and remains that the victims deservered no better because they weren't "real Italians", either by reason of birth or because their "traitorous" (i.e. non-fascist) believes made them enemies of the state. That kind of thinking, well represented in your apparent view that Breiviks crime was not WHAT he did but to WHOM he did it, is one of several dangerous problems modern fascism creates. The moment you adopt that view anyone and everyone is just one rationalization away from the most heinous violence condoned or even committed by their own government and fellow citizens.
All fascism abolishes is elections at the highest level. In practice, Mussolini still held regional and municipal elections, thereby allowing the people to choose representatives for the issues that most commonly affected their lives.

Provided they didn't want to vote for anyone exiled as an enemy of the state, in which case they were likely to join their candidate.
Italy was not some sort of draconian dictatorship, under Mussolini the mafia was broken (and subsequently released upon the world by the Americans in '43), there weren't political executions, and the most his political enemies had to fear was comfortable exile in France, the U.S., or the U.K., welcome to return when they were ready to stop being critical of the government.

Is that how they "broke" the mafia? Just sent members out of the country until they were willing to comply with and parrot state propaganda? When you say, "comfortable" exile in another country, do you mean the government paid for their relocation and supported them in exile, or did they just leave one step ahead of the black shirts (if they were lucky) and fend for themselves in a foreign land however they could, hoping they didn't meet the same fate Trotsky did in Mexico? Regardless, any state that denies its citizens free expression under penalty of exile (if we accept your version of events that no one was subjected to state sanctioned, let alone initiated, violence) has ceased to serve the interests and welfare of those citizens, and abrogated the legitimacy of its own government. That's the traditional problem with fascism in Italy and everywhere else: Government ceases to be public service, because the public becomes the states servant rather than the reverse.
Mussolini's economic policies led Italy out of the Great Depression before most first world countries, his social policies led to the Lateran Pact with the Vatican ending nearly a century of internal conflict with the Church, and his government was the most effective Italy has had in the last 100 years.

Fascisms chief defense in the '30s was that it led a number of countries out of the Depression; those defences usually glossed over or ignored the fact fascism economic achievements came largely through imperialist military expansion, subjugation of conquered populations and ruthless suppression of dissenting groups (most notably labor, as in the case of the labor politician Italian fascists murdered in the early '20s). America had 25% unemployment in 1932, which would've been eliminated if 5% of the population were also eliminated and another 20% imprisoned; that would not, however, represent any economic improvement except on paper. Likewise, reconquering the ancient Roman empire and handing vast amounts of resources to Italian businesses for free would be great for those businesses, but whether the cost of the war machine represents a true benefit to the economy or just thousands of man hours wasted every time a tank explodes in an Ethiopian desert remains to be seen. Bottom line is that industry cranked up markedly to build the war machine, and was invigorated by both seized foreign resources and ruthless suppression of labor discontent, but any economy that sends people to prison or murders them outright for questioning its strength can't be very strong.
Anyhow, another point I'll make is this: I believe fascism to be uniquely Italian. It can't be replicated elsewhere without problems (see what happened when they attempted to be nationalistic in Germany). As such, I would never encourage other countries to be "fascist", as they could never properly adopt our revolution. So it's not like I'd divide the world into giant fascist states all fighting each other. It could never work anyway.

The conceit that fascisms problems were unique to Germany or foreign to Italy is just that: A conceit belied by copiously documented historical facts. Because fascism does not hold sway you have the liberty to ignore those facts if you like, but no amount of civil liberty will alter them or make fascism desirable or even viable.
But neither can the idea of perpetual peaceful co-existence. One state must always rise above the others, and that should be mine.

There will always be a natural international give and take, a pecking order dictated by geography and demographics. It's laudable and wise to want ones own nation to benefit from that as much as possible. However, when one nation seeks to prosper, not by improving itself, but by degrading its neighbors, honorable patriotism crosses the line to become disgusting nationalism. Perhaps the greatest core problem of fascism, in Italy, Germany, Spain and Japan, was and is that fascist nations seek to alter a natural balance of power less generous to them than they would like, by seizing what they do not possess from those who do possess it. Even if that were legitimate, it can't work because the greater power other nations already possess ensures their victory in the inevitable armed conflict. War may be diplomacy continued by other means, but in most cases a nation that can't achieve its goals diplomatically will have no better fortune martially, but suffer far more for the attempt. Their very motive makes victory impossible, and their aggressive acts make it inevitable that the stronger nations from which they seek to seize power will ultimately and successfully resist just as violently. Bank robbers don't win shootouts with the police because the police have more guns.
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Large explosion in Oslo and nearby shootings - 22/07/2011 03:52:56 PM 1882 Views
A bit too convenient for an accident, I'd say. - 22/07/2011 03:54:38 PM 612 Views
I agree - 22/07/2011 03:59:16 PM 606 Views
Why do you care about making a claim? You're not a reporter. - 22/07/2011 04:53:06 PM 612 Views
Because I was making the post to tell people what was happening - 22/07/2011 05:26:11 PM 597 Views
He IS reporting - 22/07/2011 11:46:30 PM 520 Views
Let's not get ridiculous. - 23/07/2011 02:10:26 AM 544 Views
Police in Oslo have confirmed it was a bomb. *NM* - 22/07/2011 04:15:04 PM 506 Views
Not good - two reported dead so far - 22/07/2011 04:23:03 PM 612 Views
Re: Not good - two reported dead so far - 22/07/2011 04:26:15 PM 586 Views
I've long assumed this was the case. - 22/07/2011 04:28:40 PM 546 Views
Ah, I has suspected so - 22/07/2011 04:32:14 PM 502 Views
I thought everyone loved Norway! - 22/07/2011 04:26:25 PM 589 Views
'cept Whales - 22/07/2011 04:31:01 PM 616 Views
Hey, I wouldn't put something like this past Green Peace. - 22/07/2011 04:37:40 PM 552 Views
I would. *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:52:38 PM 523 Views
Your faith is greater than mine then. - 22/07/2011 10:26:54 PM 543 Views
Sounds like you're confusing Greenpeace with PETA. *NM* - 22/07/2011 10:53:18 PM 517 Views
Earth First is more likely. - 22/07/2011 11:14:33 PM 616 Views
And 8-11th century Irish and Brits - 22/07/2011 05:20:07 PM 575 Views
This ain't cool. *NM* - 22/07/2011 04:55:21 PM 562 Views
It is terrible. - 22/07/2011 05:13:24 PM 515 Views
There are allegedly also people firing at the youth camp of the Labour party at an island - 22/07/2011 05:26:29 PM 625 Views
Are Labour the ruling party? - 22/07/2011 05:28:51 PM 557 Views
Yes. One of three. - 22/07/2011 05:33:42 PM 633 Views
That's horrible. - 22/07/2011 05:42:07 PM 563 Views
I hope the perpetrators are made to suffer - 22/07/2011 05:53:38 PM 563 Views
7 confirmed dead, 2 severly injured, several with minor injuries. - 22/07/2011 06:45:32 PM 579 Views
and at least 9 additional dead on Utøya... *NM* - 22/07/2011 09:23:25 PM 526 Views
Utøya was just.... terrible. - 22/07/2011 09:58:18 PM 552 Views
Norwegian papers article, in English: - 22/07/2011 10:51:32 PM 724 Views
so "Youth camp" doesnt mean little kids right? - 22/07/2011 11:05:42 PM 563 Views
I gather 14-18 years old *NM* - 22/07/2011 11:07:37 PM 481 Views
wow.... *NM* - 22/07/2011 11:11:34 PM 498 Views
HS kids, from what I can gather. - 22/07/2011 11:45:30 PM 545 Views
The person arrested is Anders Behring Breivik - 23/07/2011 01:14:58 AM 548 Views
At least 80 dead so far. - 23/07/2011 03:09:38 AM 673 Views
Oh I feel sick - 23/07/2011 03:55:04 AM 592 Views
Yes. *NM* - 23/07/2011 07:25:46 AM 529 Views
Wow, that's horrible *NM* - 23/07/2011 05:55:11 AM 535 Views
“It seems kind of unreal, especially in Norway. This is not something that could happen here.” - 23/07/2011 10:23:48 AM 560 Views
Yeah, but it is quite shocking in such a normally placid country. - 23/07/2011 04:04:04 PM 636 Views
Norwegians cops dont carry guns? - 23/07/2011 08:05:07 PM 559 Views
Re: Norwegians cops dont carry guns? - 23/07/2011 09:01:28 PM 586 Views
It's Europe; guns are a lot more heavily regulated. - 23/07/2011 09:32:15 PM 580 Views
Holy crap - 23/07/2011 11:06:32 AM 567 Views
Sounds like an anarchist, i.e., left-wing nut..... *NM* - 23/07/2011 03:10:55 PM 495 Views
Try Christian fundamentalist - 23/07/2011 04:12:55 PM 553 Views
Eerm, yeah...What Joel said - 23/07/2011 04:40:21 PM 608 Views
There's very few facts for anyone to be working with - 23/07/2011 05:52:26 PM 530 Views
Just having switched off the latest news... - 23/07/2011 06:21:09 PM 525 Views
Re: Just having switched off the latest news... - 23/07/2011 09:01:36 PM 479 Views
Why can't we just call him a wing-nut and agree? - 23/07/2011 07:27:33 PM 642 Views
why cant we call him a terrorist? - 23/07/2011 08:01:33 PM 538 Views
Because terrorist attacks only happens to the US. - 23/07/2011 08:21:05 PM 540 Views
Poes Law, man, Poes Law. - 23/07/2011 10:02:45 PM 501 Views
I'm fine with that; the media here's certainly calling him a terrorist. - 23/07/2011 09:59:15 PM 500 Views
i noticed the Norwegians are calling it a terror attack - 24/07/2011 03:17:53 AM 531 Views
Christian media bias, eh? - 24/07/2011 03:48:22 AM 538 Views
Sorry, new laptop. - 23/07/2011 09:59:15 PM 484 Views
oh, please. *NM* - 23/07/2011 09:09:40 PM 496 Views
My thoughts echo yours. - 23/07/2011 03:54:22 PM 526 Views
The people of Norway are in everyones thoughts and prayers. *NM* - 23/07/2011 12:51:38 PM 517 Views
This is awful, *NM* - 23/07/2011 03:43:37 PM 513 Views
Absolutely tragic. Sick sick person. *NM* - 23/07/2011 03:58:15 PM 457 Views
A victim's account - 23/07/2011 05:40:01 PM 635 Views
By the way - too bad Norway doesn't have the death penalty.....very justified in this case. *NM* - 23/07/2011 08:44:32 PM 477 Views
Very much true - 23/07/2011 09:31:14 PM 537 Views
Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years". - 23/07/2011 09:33:52 PM 604 Views
21 years? Wow, what a stupid system..... *NM* - 23/07/2011 09:41:18 PM 495 Views
Re: Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years". - 23/07/2011 09:43:12 PM 643 Views
Anything less than execution is wrong..... - 23/07/2011 09:52:07 PM 567 Views
By the Grace of God, that's not your call to make. - 23/07/2011 10:06:05 PM 539 Views
92 murders = execution - 23/07/2011 10:09:33 PM 556 Views
I don't think that the Norwegian criminal system is based on that ideal. - 24/07/2011 03:03:42 PM 481 Views
Which almost without exception makes a lot more sense. - 23/07/2011 10:04:48 PM 532 Views
I have a feeling - 24/07/2011 04:08:34 AM 542 Views
Not at all. Luckily, we don't have death penalty - 24/07/2011 09:16:28 AM 598 Views
Right wing terrorism always confused me. - 24/07/2011 04:44:34 AM 571 Views
I don't understand how anyone can be a fascist. *NM* - 24/07/2011 07:15:16 AM 489 Views
I don't understand how any Italian can not be. *NM* - 24/07/2011 01:51:34 PM 559 Views
Cause fascism didn't do much good for Italy? *NM* - 24/07/2011 05:06:34 PM 470 Views
Bahaha yeah except 20 years of peace, prosperity and effective government. - 25/07/2011 12:06:35 AM 520 Views
It's important to distinguish between Roman and modern fascism. - 25/07/2011 03:48:24 AM 555 Views
The problem with that is simple. - 25/07/2011 02:15:38 PM 488 Views
I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you. - 25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM 490 Views
Wikipedia, really? - 25/07/2011 05:07:28 PM 563 Views
Merely for convenience; the things I linked (e.g. blackshirt murder campaigns) are common knowledge. - 25/07/2011 07:00:22 PM 480 Views
Actually yes, he does. - 26/07/2011 03:23:20 AM 502 Views
Actually, I know quite a bit about fascism in Italy - 25/07/2011 08:29:04 AM 608 Views
If you did... - 25/07/2011 02:05:31 PM 403 Views
You're full of it... and apparently you don't know it. *NM* - 25/07/2011 06:40:14 PM 485 Views
Again, use facts... - 26/07/2011 03:24:02 AM 583 Views
I'm too amused by your unfounded accusations of ignorance - 26/07/2011 06:13:42 AM 461 Views
I don't debate with the ignorant. - 26/07/2011 01:43:07 PM 503 Views
My guess is they're viewed as "collaborators". - 24/07/2011 12:05:00 PM 536 Views
Even so. - 24/07/2011 01:55:08 PM 534 Views
Yeah, I can't really explain it; it's insane behavior. - 24/07/2011 04:57:27 PM 509 Views
/ignoring the ridiculous fascism stuff... on the subject of killing your own - 25/07/2011 04:36:01 PM 549 Views
Regardless. - 25/07/2011 05:17:36 PM 515 Views
That's tempting, saying he isn't a "real" or "true" nationalist. - 25/07/2011 09:20:38 PM 599 Views
Well I just don't comptrehend how he could be a "true" or "real" nationalist... - 26/07/2011 03:25:35 AM 539 Views
That's clearly not true - 26/07/2011 10:35:05 AM 499 Views
I'm pretty sure it's against nationalism as anyone defines it. - 26/07/2011 01:43:56 PM 546 Views
See? - 26/07/2011 02:05:09 PM 483 Views
Right, but... - 26/07/2011 10:47:29 PM 566 Views
Yes he is on the far right - 26/07/2011 10:54:06 PM 525 Views
I'm hardly a fanatic. - 27/07/2011 12:23:09 AM 404 Views
You do come across that way here. - 27/07/2011 11:05:26 AM 525 Views
Maybe to you, then again if you want to talk about how people come across on the internet... - 27/07/2011 10:05:39 PM 562 Views
That makes sense - 27/07/2011 11:27:29 PM 509 Views
How would a Nazi killing ONLY aryans be a Nazi? - 28/07/2011 06:27:03 AM 542 Views
Remember how the Nazis killled socialists and other people who disagreed with them? That is how. *NM* - 28/07/2011 07:40:24 AM 467 Views
and don't forget it was how the far left killed the people they did like as well - 28/07/2011 11:47:26 AM 481 Views
Sorry but when was the USSR nationalistic? - 28/07/2011 12:40:46 PM 475 Views
Great Patriotic War ring a bell? - 28/07/2011 06:04:02 PM 488 Views
And how was that nationalistic? - 28/07/2011 08:05:01 PM 488 Views
Can you read? - 28/07/2011 06:02:13 PM 504 Views
The rather famous Night of the Long Knives not ring a bell? - 28/07/2011 10:34:47 AM 478 Views
Again, I said a Nazi who kills ONLY aryans. - 28/07/2011 06:03:00 PM 536 Views
I have no idea why I want to jump into this but I would just point out two things - 28/07/2011 12:46:56 AM 541 Views
Okay that's fair. - 28/07/2011 06:28:57 AM 532 Views
So horrible. *NM* - 24/07/2011 06:24:28 AM 504 Views
Apparently, he plagiarised tehe UNA-bomber in his manifesto - 24/07/2011 02:52:36 PM 547 Views
Wow, that's impressive, in all the worst senses of the word. - 24/07/2011 05:05:24 PM 488 Views
Having read his manifesto and watched his youtube video... - 25/07/2011 01:50:07 AM 519 Views
Oh, so killing people who are NOT HIS OWN would have been ok? *NM* - 25/07/2011 10:38:50 AM 454 Views
Would have been understandable. - 25/07/2011 02:03:31 PM 525 Views
Much as it pains me to say, most of his victims were almost certainly not Christian. - 25/07/2011 07:04:21 PM 530 Views
Again. - 26/07/2011 03:26:51 AM 503 Views
I really wish they would stop mentioning he was a fan of True Blood *NM* - 25/07/2011 05:47:16 AM 446 Views
In the middle of all this, why is that important to you? *NM* - 25/07/2011 09:04:54 AM 521 Views
its important to me to know why its important enough to mention - 25/07/2011 09:15:11 PM 491 Views
And ego shooter games, as if they were the final trigger *NM* - 25/07/2011 10:40:33 AM 468 Views
And the fact that he was a Eurovision fan - 25/07/2011 11:23:48 AM 516 Views
are political party sponsored youth camps common in Europe? - 25/07/2011 07:13:00 PM 536 Views
It is the labour youth organisation's summer camp - 25/07/2011 09:11:57 PM 520 Views
sorry but that just seems very odd to me - 25/07/2011 10:08:07 PM 508 Views
Re: sorry but that just seems very odd to me - 25/07/2011 10:20:27 PM 513 Views
that would make a big difference - 25/07/2011 10:32:52 PM 512 Views
I think most such organizations have a somewhat older membership - 16-25 or so. - 25/07/2011 10:30:04 PM 503 Views
having children who are passed their teens I still considered teenagers kids - 25/07/2011 10:57:50 PM 509 Views
Yeah, I guess that'd depend on your perspective. - 25/07/2011 11:17:17 PM 495 Views
Re:I know that - 27/07/2011 03:39:47 AM 565 Views
Re: Re:I know that - 27/07/2011 09:04:24 AM 517 Views
Re: He took lives. - 28/07/2011 12:23:43 AM 383 Views
are we really so bored and entrenched that we are debating the motives of a mad man? *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:13:38 PM 494 Views
Quite. *NM* - 26/07/2011 06:03:30 PM 473 Views