I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you.
Joel Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM
Fascism allows for civil liberties, and in fact in Fascist Italy the average citizen had more liberties than one living in the United States (see treatment of Black Americans citizens).
So I'll let you discuss that with the people who spat on Mussolinis corpse when they hung up for public display after his death. I'd suggest telling everyone blackshirts murdered to stop telling lies, but since they're dead, you can't. I suppose the term "sicario del Duce" was just a figurative nickname for Amerigo Dumini, notwithstanding him ACTUALLY assassinating one of Mussolinis political enemies (for which he received an amnesty from il Duce himself). Facts, it is said, are stubborn things, and that Mussolinis fascists routinely committed violence against their fellow Italians (precisely the kind of violence you've repeatedly condemned from Breivik) is well established well documented fact. Of course, the standard rationalization was and remains that the victims deservered no better because they weren't "real Italians", either by reason of birth or because their "traitorous" (i.e. non-fascist) believes made them enemies of the state. That kind of thinking, well represented in your apparent view that Breiviks crime was not WHAT he did but to WHOM he did it, is one of several dangerous problems modern fascism creates. The moment you adopt that view anyone and everyone is just one rationalization away from the most heinous violence condoned or even committed by their own government and fellow citizens.
All fascism abolishes is elections at the highest level. In practice, Mussolini still held regional and municipal elections, thereby allowing the people to choose representatives for the issues that most commonly affected their lives.
Provided they didn't want to vote for anyone exiled as an enemy of the state, in which case they were likely to join their candidate.
Italy was not some sort of draconian dictatorship, under Mussolini the mafia was broken (and subsequently released upon the world by the Americans in '43), there weren't political executions, and the most his political enemies had to fear was comfortable exile in France, the U.S., or the U.K., welcome to return when they were ready to stop being critical of the government.
Is that how they "broke" the mafia? Just sent members out of the country until they were willing to comply with and parrot state propaganda? When you say, "comfortable" exile in another country, do you mean the government paid for their relocation and supported them in exile, or did they just leave one step ahead of the black shirts (if they were lucky) and fend for themselves in a foreign land however they could, hoping they didn't meet the same fate Trotsky did in Mexico? Regardless, any state that denies its citizens free expression under penalty of exile (if we accept your version of events that no one was subjected to state sanctioned, let alone initiated, violence) has ceased to serve the interests and welfare of those citizens, and abrogated the legitimacy of its own government. That's the traditional problem with fascism in Italy and everywhere else: Government ceases to be public service, because the public becomes the states servant rather than the reverse.
Mussolini's economic policies led Italy out of the Great Depression before most first world countries, his social policies led to the Lateran Pact with the Vatican ending nearly a century of internal conflict with the Church, and his government was the most effective Italy has had in the last 100 years.
Fascisms chief defense in the '30s was that it led a number of countries out of the Depression; those defences usually glossed over or ignored the fact fascism economic achievements came largely through imperialist military expansion, subjugation of conquered populations and ruthless suppression of dissenting groups (most notably labor, as in the case of the labor politician Italian fascists murdered in the early '20s). America had 25% unemployment in 1932, which would've been eliminated if 5% of the population were also eliminated and another 20% imprisoned; that would not, however, represent any economic improvement except on paper. Likewise, reconquering the ancient Roman empire and handing vast amounts of resources to Italian businesses for free would be great for those businesses, but whether the cost of the war machine represents a true benefit to the economy or just thousands of man hours wasted every time a tank explodes in an Ethiopian desert remains to be seen. Bottom line is that industry cranked up markedly to build the war machine, and was invigorated by both seized foreign resources and ruthless suppression of labor discontent, but any economy that sends people to prison or murders them outright for questioning its strength can't be very strong.
Anyhow, another point I'll make is this: I believe fascism to be uniquely Italian. It can't be replicated elsewhere without problems (see what happened when they attempted to be nationalistic in Germany). As such, I would never encourage other countries to be "fascist", as they could never properly adopt our revolution. So it's not like I'd divide the world into giant fascist states all fighting each other. It could never work anyway.
The conceit that fascisms problems were unique to Germany or foreign to Italy is just that: A conceit belied by copiously documented historical facts. Because fascism does not hold sway you have the liberty to ignore those facts if you like, but no amount of civil liberty will alter them or make fascism desirable or even viable.
But neither can the idea of perpetual peaceful co-existence. One state must always rise above the others, and that should be mine.
There will always be a natural international give and take, a pecking order dictated by geography and demographics. It's laudable and wise to want ones own nation to benefit from that as much as possible. However, when one nation seeks to prosper, not by improving itself, but by degrading its neighbors, honorable patriotism crosses the line to become disgusting nationalism. Perhaps the greatest core problem of fascism, in Italy, Germany, Spain and Japan, was and is that fascist nations seek to alter a natural balance of power less generous to them than they would like, by seizing what they do not possess from those who do possess it. Even if that were legitimate, it can't work because the greater power other nations already possess ensures their victory in the inevitable armed conflict. War may be diplomacy continued by other means, but in most cases a nation that can't achieve its goals diplomatically will have no better fortune martially, but suffer far more for the attempt. Their very motive makes victory impossible, and their aggressive acts make it inevitable that the stronger nations from which they seek to seize power will ultimately and successfully resist just as violently. Bank robbers don't win shootouts with the police because the police have more guns.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Large explosion in Oslo and nearby shootings
22/07/2011 03:52:56 PM
- 1882 Views
A bit too convenient for an accident, I'd say.
22/07/2011 03:54:38 PM
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I agree
22/07/2011 03:59:16 PM
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Why do you care about making a claim? You're not a reporter.
22/07/2011 04:53:06 PM
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Not good - two reported dead so far
22/07/2011 04:23:03 PM
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I thought everyone loved Norway!
22/07/2011 04:26:25 PM
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'cept Whales
22/07/2011 04:31:01 PM
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Hey, I wouldn't put something like this past Green Peace.
22/07/2011 04:37:40 PM
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I would. *NM*
22/07/2011 06:52:38 PM
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Your faith is greater than mine then.
22/07/2011 10:26:54 PM
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Pics of the site look eerily similar to the Murrah building after the OKC bombing.
22/07/2011 04:27:03 PM
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NRK says a press conference is imminent; we'll hopefully know more soon.
22/07/2011 04:48:07 PM
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There are allegedly also people firing at the youth camp of the Labour party at an island
22/07/2011 05:26:29 PM
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7 confirmed dead, 2 severly injured, several with minor injuries.
22/07/2011 06:45:32 PM
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Despite all these jihadi groups claiming responsibility the police seem to think they are.
22/07/2011 09:37:08 PM
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It sounds a lot like that, yeah; the parallels with OKC are rather striking.
22/07/2011 10:25:42 PM
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I know a lot of people are going to be dissapointed if its not a Muslim
22/07/2011 10:58:12 PM
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Re: I know a lot of people are going to be dissapointed if its not a Muslim
22/07/2011 11:03:56 PM
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Norwegian papers article, in English:
22/07/2011 10:51:32 PM
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so "Youth camp" doesnt mean little kids right?
22/07/2011 11:05:42 PM
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“It seems kind of unreal, especially in Norway. This is not something that could happen here.”
23/07/2011 10:23:48 AM
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Yeah, but it is quite shocking in such a normally placid country.
23/07/2011 04:04:04 PM
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Holy crap
23/07/2011 11:06:32 AM
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Sounds like an anarchist, i.e., left-wing nut..... *NM*
23/07/2011 03:10:55 PM
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Which explains why he was a member of the far RIGHT party until he became too extreme for even them.
23/07/2011 03:55:54 PM
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Eerm, yeah...What Joel said
23/07/2011 04:40:21 PM
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There's very few facts for anyone to be working with
23/07/2011 05:52:26 PM
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Just having switched off the latest news...
23/07/2011 06:21:09 PM
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The picture may change as more becomes known, but you only said what the police have publicly said.
23/07/2011 07:24:02 PM
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The official facts we have are clear enough to validate Jens' statement.
23/07/2011 07:21:46 PM
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Why can't we just call him a wing-nut and agree?
23/07/2011 07:27:33 PM
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why cant we call him a terrorist?
23/07/2011 08:01:33 PM
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I'm fine with that; the media here's certainly calling him a terrorist.
23/07/2011 09:59:15 PM
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i noticed the Norwegians are calling it a terror attack
24/07/2011 03:17:53 AM
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In the Netherlands they're calling him a Christian fundamentalist. *NM*
24/07/2011 07:13:48 AM
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By the way - too bad Norway doesn't have the death penalty.....very justified in this case. *NM*
23/07/2011 08:44:32 PM
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Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years".
23/07/2011 09:33:52 PM
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Re: Actually, it's more like "too bad the maximum Norwegian prison sentence is 21 years".
23/07/2011 09:43:12 PM
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Anything less than execution is wrong.....
23/07/2011 09:52:07 PM
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By the Grace of God, that's not your call to make.
23/07/2011 10:06:05 PM
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92 murders = execution
23/07/2011 10:09:33 PM
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I brought up God because you're not Him.
23/07/2011 10:12:43 PM
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God doesn't decide anything in society, people do.....
23/07/2011 10:15:43 PM
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Yes, a huge portion of the world is OK with summary execution, but nowhere you or I want to live.
23/07/2011 10:34:28 PM
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Nowhere? - the majority of US citizens support the death penalty *NM*
23/07/2011 10:57:25 PM
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Not in any form as cut and dried as you presented.
23/07/2011 11:27:52 PM
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Yeah, supporting the concept isn't the same as supporting the application.....
24/07/2011 02:25:33 AM
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Doubt can never be completely eliminated from any equation, hence the standard's "reasonable" doubt.
24/07/2011 03:35:02 AM
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Yes it can, the two cases I mentioned have no doubt regarding guilt..... *NM*
24/07/2011 04:42:13 AM
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Again, believe what you like, just don't impose it on anyone else.
24/07/2011 12:02:01 PM
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I don't think that the Norwegian criminal system is based on that ideal.
24/07/2011 03:03:42 PM
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If Norwegians are fine with their 21 year law why should it bother you?
24/07/2011 03:24:56 AM
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For some reason it's his business.
24/07/2011 03:51:36 AM
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Makes sense
25/07/2011 01:36:13 AM
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Sacrificing freedom to protect it has never been logical, and is perhaps the most "un-American" act
25/07/2011 03:53:22 AM
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Sacrificing freedom to protect has never been logical, and is perhaps the most "un-American" of acts
25/07/2011 05:36:21 AM
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Re: Sacrificing freedom to protect has never been logical, and is perhaps the most "un-American"
25/07/2011 01:25:13 PM
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You need a reason for one, but if you nominally satisfy that minimal requirement they're available.
25/07/2011 05:28:23 PM
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they don't seem to have a problem voicing an opinion about our death penalty *NM*
26/07/2011 02:12:33 PM
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Right wing terrorism always confused me.
24/07/2011 04:44:34 AM
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I don't understand how anyone can be a fascist. *NM*
24/07/2011 07:15:16 AM
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I don't understand how any Italian can not be. *NM*
24/07/2011 01:51:34 PM
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Cause fascism didn't do much good for Italy? *NM*
24/07/2011 05:06:34 PM
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Bahaha yeah except 20 years of peace, prosperity and effective government.
25/07/2011 12:06:35 AM
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It's important to distinguish between Roman and modern fascism.
25/07/2011 03:48:24 AM
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The problem with that is simple.
25/07/2011 02:15:38 PM
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I can't speak to Italian civil liberties under Mussolini, but the little I've heard contradicts you.
25/07/2011 04:27:54 PM
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Wikipedia, really?
25/07/2011 05:07:28 PM
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Merely for convenience; the things I linked (e.g. blackshirt murder campaigns) are common knowledge.
25/07/2011 07:00:22 PM
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Actually, I know quite a bit about fascism in Italy
25/07/2011 08:29:04 AM
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If you did...
25/07/2011 02:05:31 PM
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You're full of it... and apparently you don't know it. *NM*
25/07/2011 06:40:14 PM
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Again, use facts...
26/07/2011 03:24:02 AM
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My guess is they're viewed as "collaborators".
24/07/2011 12:05:00 PM
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/ignoring the ridiculous fascism stuff... on the subject of killing your own
25/07/2011 04:36:01 PM
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Regardless.
25/07/2011 05:17:36 PM
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That's tempting, saying he isn't a "real" or "true" nationalist.
25/07/2011 09:20:38 PM
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Well I just don't comptrehend how he could be a "true" or "real" nationalist...
26/07/2011 03:25:35 AM
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That's clearly not true
26/07/2011 10:35:05 AM
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I'm pretty sure it's against nationalism as anyone defines it.
26/07/2011 01:43:56 PM
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See?
26/07/2011 02:05:09 PM
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Right, but...
26/07/2011 10:47:29 PM
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Yes he is on the far right
26/07/2011 10:54:06 PM
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I'm hardly a fanatic.
27/07/2011 12:23:09 AM
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You do come across that way here.
27/07/2011 11:05:26 AM
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Maybe to you, then again if you want to talk about how people come across on the internet...
27/07/2011 10:05:39 PM
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That makes sense
27/07/2011 11:27:29 PM
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How would a Nazi killing ONLY aryans be a Nazi?
28/07/2011 06:27:03 AM
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Remember how the Nazis killled socialists and other people who disagreed with them? That is how. *NM*
28/07/2011 07:40:24 AM
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and don't forget it was how the far left killed the people they did like as well
28/07/2011 11:47:26 AM
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Sorry but when was the USSR nationalistic?
28/07/2011 12:40:46 PM
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The rather famous Night of the Long Knives not ring a bell?
28/07/2011 10:34:47 AM
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Again, I said a Nazi who kills ONLY aryans.
28/07/2011 06:03:00 PM
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So you know for a fact that every Nazi who killed a fellow Aryan nazi that night also killed others?
28/07/2011 08:01:35 PM
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I have no idea why I want to jump into this but I would just point out two things
28/07/2011 12:46:56 AM
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Unfortunately Anders was a product of this delusional age
24/07/2011 07:15:28 PM
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I suppose that was intended to be as cryptic as it sounds? *NM*
24/07/2011 09:43:49 PM
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Cryptic's accurate enough but some other descriptions come to mind *NM*
25/07/2011 06:58:42 PM
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I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. In a dubious, halfhearted sort of way.
25/07/2011 09:21:55 PM
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Dear God, I hope they don't give him the platform to preach his crap
24/07/2011 10:07:37 PM
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it seems he has won, he has a fan on this website in fact, just look at the thread below yours
25/07/2011 05:33:39 AM
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Having read his manifesto and watched his youtube video...
25/07/2011 01:50:07 AM
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Oh, so killing people who are NOT HIS OWN would have been ok? *NM*
25/07/2011 10:38:50 AM
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Would have been understandable.
25/07/2011 02:03:31 PM
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Much as it pains me to say, most of his victims were almost certainly not Christian.
25/07/2011 07:04:21 PM
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I'm amazed that one person could cause this level of death.
25/07/2011 05:35:33 AM
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I too was surprised
25/07/2011 05:45:10 AM
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I'm told it takes most of an hour just to DRIVE from Oslo to Utøya.
25/07/2011 07:14:16 PM
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galveston wouldnt need police from houston, they have police on the island.
25/07/2011 09:22:40 PM
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If there were reports that someone was slaughter children?
25/07/2011 10:18:45 PM
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A local with a deer rifle vs. a man in combat armor with an automatic rifle and military training?
25/07/2011 10:36:54 PM
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yes local, who would have military training as well, could have taken him with a deer rifle
25/07/2011 11:17:08 PM
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Theoretically; bear in mind that Charles Whitman spent two full hours killing people in the UT tower
26/07/2011 12:54:51 AM
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More on response time; it could have been better, but was more like an hour than hour and a half.
26/07/2011 01:59:30 AM
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they still are working under the assumption that they had to use heavily armed special forces
26/07/2011 03:09:05 PM
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The level of planning is what made it possible, and what makes it so chilling.
25/07/2011 07:25:23 PM
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I really wish they would stop mentioning he was a fan of True Blood *NM*
25/07/2011 05:47:16 AM
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are political party sponsored youth camps common in Europe?
25/07/2011 07:13:00 PM
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It is the labour youth organisation's summer camp
25/07/2011 09:11:57 PM
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sorry but that just seems very odd to me
25/07/2011 10:08:07 PM
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I think most such organizations have a somewhat older membership - 16-25 or so.
25/07/2011 10:30:04 PM
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having children who are passed their teens I still considered teenagers kids
25/07/2011 10:57:50 PM
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Re:I know that
27/07/2011 03:39:47 AM
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are we really so bored and entrenched that we are debating the motives of a mad man? *NM*
26/07/2011 02:13:38 PM
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