Apparently so; "completely anarchy as long as its regulated to one's body" sounds nonsensical to me.
Joel Send a noteboard - 06/07/2011 11:44:50 PM
I could pick apart the entire post that you sent based upon plenty of things...and catch you in plenty of moral arguements where you are basically advocating for complete anarchy as long as its regulated to one's body. But I'm not going to do that.
Anarchy is by definition a social construct; nothing restricted to a single individual can BE "anarchy". Hence I dispute saying that, because I don't think it can be said; it makes no more sense than a phrase like "democratic person" or "group individual". I'm not advocating anarchy of any sort here, but resisting mob rule, and I have to say I find it odd that you don't see that.
Instead, I'll focus on one little phrase which you've said here (and a variation of what you've said before).
<snip> disgusting and immoral; that doesn't mean they should be illegal </snip>
This phrase was used in this case in regards to prostitution and organ sales. In other contex, you've used something along these lines before....
<snip> disgusting and immoral; that doesn't mean they should be illegal </snip>
This phrase was used in this case in regards to prostitution and organ sales. In other contex, you've used something along these lines before....
It's a distinction I often make, because it's important and often neglected, making frequent reminders all the more important.
I have a real difficult time not legislating things that are disgusting and immoral. Why? Because not having rules against it is tantamount to endorsement. No law against beastality, means society is cool with it. No law against murder, means society is cool with it.
Murder infringes on other peoples right to live as they please (to live at all, in fact). Again, your rights aren't absolue; they end where they infringe on my equally inalienable rights. Bestiality abuses animals who can't give or deny consent, though animals aren't entitled to the rights of people (we do eat them, after all). Of course, in many parts of America it's only been illegal a few years, when people learned it was hard to prosecute even as animal cruelty. For that matter, even animal cruelty laws seem more about preventing sociopathic behavior that would find its way to human targets, and of course protecting the property rights of people with pets and/or livestock. It's not like we have tons of ancient laws against bestiality on the basis of morality though; we have a number of very recent laws against it because a disgusted modern society discovered previous ones declined to legislate on the basis of morality alone.
Do you see where I'm going with this? We live in a society where freedom is the default setting. Without being expressly told not to do it, it is permissable. Much like when driving (in California at least)...I can do a U-turn at any intersection....unless it tells me that I can't. Society functions much the same way. I can do whatever I want...unless there's a rule against it.
Yes, I see exactly where you're going: Immoral acts SHOULD be illegal. The problem with that logic is that right after that you say,
Oh, and I know/realize/understand about the whole love cannot be coerced thing. But please try and keep a barrier between the aspects of loving God and loving our society. You cannot approach the two in the same way....as God is without sin. Society, as evidenced over and over, is rife with sin.
~Jeordam
~Jeordam
You're arguing we should legislate morality then reminding me society is rife with sin; see any conflicts there...?
The real problem is that I don't believe in moral relativism AND know society generally does. That means that if we start letting majorities dictate law on the basis of what they declare unassailable morality we'll not only end up with very immoral laws (which makes the quest for moral law largely pointless anyway), but extremely inconsistent and temporary laws, because as societys laws will shift with its social mores. That already happens to a great extent, as I believe you're aware, but unless we restrict our restrictions to actions that affect those unwilling or unable to consent it will become epidemic. That's a lot closer to anarchy than anything I'm suggesting; it's no more than "if 51% of voters say it feels good, do it--whether you want to or not". Murder, bestiality, you name it. Wanna hook your daughters on crack and rape them so they'll bear you more crack whores to pimp? It's never more than a ballot initiative from legality, but be careful; if you don't word it right it might be COMPULSORY and then you'll have too much competition. It used to be a federal crime to free slaves or prevent their owners from recapturing them; did having a rule against those things make them immoral, or just unpopular? If you really think society functions on the basis of "I can do whatever I want...unless there's a rule against it" I recommend never leaving America, especially not for any place in the Mid-East. Most countries there have lots of strictly enforced rules against lots of things, but how well their societies "function" is open to debate (we've been debating it with the Taliban for nearly a decade).
Yes, society is rife with sin, but the principle form of sin is imposing ones will on others. Ultimately, even when when we do immoral things that involve no one but ourselves it's just an attempt to impose our supremacy on God, but since we aren't God it's not our place to deny others that freedom, however we abuse it, or we're just as guilty as they. Society is rife with sin, but Christians are supposed to try, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to be Christ-like. Going around imposing our will on others because we're fortunate enough to outnumber them doesn't accomplish that, it prevents it. We can argue, we can persuade, we can convince but we can NEVER coerce without committing sin.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
You can't make this stuff up: Helmet law protester dies in crash
05/07/2011 08:47:14 PM
- 872 Views
Kinda undermines his protest *NM*
05/07/2011 09:01:50 PM
- 255 Views
How so? He wasn't demanding the right to survive crashes when only a helmet makes that possible.
05/07/2011 11:06:44 PM
- 543 Views
New York feels that people should have to wear helmets for their own safety
05/07/2011 11:20:36 PM
- 516 Views
He felt his own safety was his own concern.
06/07/2011 12:07:05 AM
- 456 Views
Who do you think would have ended up paying for his care for the rest of his life if the accident
06/07/2011 01:08:49 AM
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The same people who pay for everyone else whose actions render them vegetables.
06/07/2011 01:50:20 AM
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Maybe a more effective argument you could use against me would be pointing out
06/07/2011 02:33:21 AM
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what a fricking idiot
05/07/2011 10:02:17 PM
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That's your opinion to which you're entitled.
05/07/2011 11:19:36 PM
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Anarchy, baby! *NM*
06/07/2011 12:58:23 AM
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Sorry, as an advocate of civil rights (which especially includes minorities) I oppose anarchy.
06/07/2011 01:18:19 AM
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The public's nose is on the line here too.
06/07/2011 01:47:08 AM
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So my increased ease of hearing/seeing vehicles and other hazards isn't worth $1200.
06/07/2011 02:25:53 AM
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I understand the pov, I had a BF who felt that same way. It's still much like childish defiance.
06/07/2011 01:26:15 AM
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In part it's a matter of principle, but if we really want to analyze it there's some deeper validity
06/07/2011 02:13:05 AM
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you keep spreading falsehoods, stop it please
06/07/2011 02:49:01 AM
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Sounds like your real argument is with the other bikers; I'm just reiterating their arguments.
06/07/2011 03:38:39 AM
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Uh Joel...
06/07/2011 03:38:24 AM
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Agreed, having others in the car does make a difference.
06/07/2011 03:47:53 AM
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Hence why your "I wouldn't wear a seatbelt in the back seat" comment didn't make a lot of sense
06/07/2011 07:38:50 PM
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Depends on whether the driver, rather than the law, is the one insisting.
06/07/2011 08:06:24 PM
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You'd place your own comfort over other people's safety?
06/07/2011 11:37:00 PM
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It's more a comfort issue than anything else; it's not solely one.
06/07/2011 11:56:28 PM
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Hold the phone here...
06/07/2011 07:49:10 PM
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+1 *NM*
06/07/2011 08:42:14 PM
- 322 Views
You agree with him that the abortion debate is about a mothers convenience versus the babys life?
06/07/2011 10:48:52 PM
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im not bringing abortion into this, its a separate issue *NM*
06/07/2011 10:56:17 PM
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It's really not.
07/07/2011 12:20:10 AM
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i'm really not
07/07/2011 03:34:23 PM
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Fine as far as it goes, but public/private only matters to the extent others are affected.
09/07/2011 11:15:33 AM
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Holding the phone here might be good, yes....
06/07/2011 10:33:46 PM
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See...that's the difference between you and me
06/07/2011 10:56:53 PM
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Apparently so; "completely anarchy as long as its regulated to one's body" sounds nonsensical to me.
06/07/2011 11:44:50 PM
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I'm with Joel. I always buckle up/helmet up, but I think such laws are asinine
06/07/2011 02:30:04 AM
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why not just ban motorcycles all together, they are much more dangerous than cars
06/07/2011 05:39:51 PM
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Helmets help save lives. 'Onest.
07/07/2011 04:40:42 PM
- 645 Views
So do not smoking, eating right and regular exercise, but we haven't made them mandatory.
09/07/2011 11:04:58 AM
- 653 Views