I'm not, exactly. Religion has internal logic. For example, certain things are "unclean"
beetnemesis Send a noteboard - 11/06/2011 04:40:33 PM
In some religions. Not psychologically so, but literally. As in, if you touch this pig/blood/woman, you are actually, spiritually unclean. It's not a state of mind, it's spiritual cause and effect. Logic.*
Christianity, for the most part, doesn't have much of that (of course, that's not counting those creepy little reliquaries filled with the knucklebones of saints, but I digress).
Most of the time, Christianity is simply about belief, without any sort of magical accessories. So, a woman who was praying for her sick child on her knees in a closet would be no less likely to have her prayers answered than if she was doing it holding a diamond-studded crucifix, surrounded by scented oils. As long as the belief is there, you're good.
The issue I had with holy water is that, despite whatever justifications people come up with, it is basically treated as "magic water." If you touch it, you are blessed. If you use it in your baptism, that's better than regular water. It can be used to ward off attacks from demons (I'm not being facetious, the idea that holy water can ward off evil is definitely a part of the perception of holy water, even if it's not one that comes up often during a sermon).
But it's not ABOUT THAT. It is entirely psychological. It's placebo. It's feel-good.
And that would be fine, if that's how it was treated. However, when a priest blesses water, he's not thinking "Ah, I'll wave my hands over this water, that'll make the flock feel better." No, he's thinking "Oh Lord, please bless this water."
Holy water is treated as magical water, even though we all seem to be in consensus that it is, at best, a symbol. That's what bugs me about holy water.
*I'll take a moment here to talk about using logic to talk about religion. At first it sounds absurd, but if you approach it the same way you talk about logic in, say, Wheel of Time (or any other fantasy novel, for that matter), it works out pretty well. Both religions and fantasy books have their own internal logic that their world follows. Both are always unable to get it right 100% of the time, so there are always going to be some inconsistencies. That shouldn't stop people from enjoying the Dresden Files/the Bible, but I hope it does stop people from always assuming every single word put down is, heh, gospel.
(An added bonus is that it really irritates a certain type of person when you compare their holy book to the Dresden Files)
Christianity, for the most part, doesn't have much of that (of course, that's not counting those creepy little reliquaries filled with the knucklebones of saints, but I digress).
Most of the time, Christianity is simply about belief, without any sort of magical accessories. So, a woman who was praying for her sick child on her knees in a closet would be no less likely to have her prayers answered than if she was doing it holding a diamond-studded crucifix, surrounded by scented oils. As long as the belief is there, you're good.
The issue I had with holy water is that, despite whatever justifications people come up with, it is basically treated as "magic water." If you touch it, you are blessed. If you use it in your baptism, that's better than regular water. It can be used to ward off attacks from demons (I'm not being facetious, the idea that holy water can ward off evil is definitely a part of the perception of holy water, even if it's not one that comes up often during a sermon).
But it's not ABOUT THAT. It is entirely psychological. It's placebo. It's feel-good.
And that would be fine, if that's how it was treated. However, when a priest blesses water, he's not thinking "Ah, I'll wave my hands over this water, that'll make the flock feel better." No, he's thinking "Oh Lord, please bless this water."
Holy water is treated as magical water, even though we all seem to be in consensus that it is, at best, a symbol. That's what bugs me about holy water.
*I'll take a moment here to talk about using logic to talk about religion. At first it sounds absurd, but if you approach it the same way you talk about logic in, say, Wheel of Time (or any other fantasy novel, for that matter), it works out pretty well. Both religions and fantasy books have their own internal logic that their world follows. Both are always unable to get it right 100% of the time, so there are always going to be some inconsistencies. That shouldn't stop people from enjoying the Dresden Files/the Bible, but I hope it does stop people from always assuming every single word put down is, heh, gospel.
(An added bonus is that it really irritates a certain type of person when you compare their holy book to the Dresden Files)
I amuse myself.
A question on baptism
10/06/2011 09:21:44 AM
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To my knowledge, baptism does not stem from the Resurrection.
10/06/2011 11:01:17 AM
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What I meant
10/06/2011 11:03:08 AM
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I don't follow.
10/06/2011 11:08:07 AM
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Re: I don't follow.
10/06/2011 11:10:40 AM
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I don't keep up with RC theology much.
10/06/2011 11:15:52 AM
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Re: I don't keep up with RC theology much.
10/06/2011 11:17:53 AM
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They should, IMHO, but the difficulty of definitively saying is why Limbo was created.
11/06/2011 10:39:26 AM
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Re: They should, IMHO, but the difficulty of definitively saying is why Limbo was created.
11/06/2011 11:53:53 AM
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You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:50:53 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:52:27 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:55:01 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 11:58:36 AM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:16:46 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:19:16 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:25:08 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:26:30 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:28:45 PM
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Re: You haven't necessarily developed a wrong impression.
10/06/2011 12:29:43 PM
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Circumcision remains common among Christians mostly for symbolic reasons as well.
11/06/2011 10:48:48 AM
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Hm, I don't know. I don't think I know any non-Jews who are circumsized that see it as a symbol
11/06/2011 04:44:02 PM
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I took a holy dip into the Ganges
10/06/2011 11:48:26 AM
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Early Christians and Jews were obsessed with purity
10/06/2011 12:56:58 PM
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Oh, I know about the historical/academic/anthropological reason
10/06/2011 01:04:43 PM
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A first responce
10/06/2011 02:09:32 PM
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Do you want a theological answer or a historical one?
10/06/2011 03:16:44 PM
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The theological. I already had a fairly good idea of the historical
10/06/2011 03:18:51 PM
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My favorite fact about baptism is that is REQUIRES water... but it can be ANY water
10/06/2011 04:31:12 PM
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That is absurd.
10/06/2011 08:37:13 PM
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It is absurd
10/06/2011 08:56:19 PM
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When your post is eviscerated, resorting to "HURR RELIGION IS DUMB" isn't a winning move.
10/06/2011 10:00:39 PM
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Psh.You can dress it up with spiritualism and semantics, but the concept boils down to "magic water"
11/06/2011 03:56:03 AM
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The point is that it's a symbol.
11/06/2011 04:45:19 AM
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I have no problem with water as a symbol
11/06/2011 04:59:52 AM
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You are totally missing the point.
11/06/2011 02:46:08 PM
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Which again, is something that sounds nice and spiritual, but doesn't actually make any sense
11/06/2011 03:46:51 PM
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your problem is you're trying to apply objective logic to religion
11/06/2011 04:13:01 PM
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I'm not, exactly. Religion has internal logic. For example, certain things are "unclean"
11/06/2011 04:40:33 PM
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Beliefs about holy water are internally logical.
11/06/2011 07:36:08 PM
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Shrug. It was on topic.
11/06/2011 08:06:16 PM
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The more I read of your posts, the more I think you fundamentally misunderstand religious symbolism. *NM*
11/06/2011 10:51:17 PM
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Let me clarify: your statements are absurd.
10/06/2011 10:14:06 PM
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Check my response to Ghav for elaboration, but basically, your argument doesn't hold
11/06/2011 04:00:18 AM
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You went from saying spit was good to saying "clean water".
12/06/2011 02:04:26 AM
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I'm completely consistent. I was just staying away from extremes for conversation's sake.
12/06/2011 09:02:02 AM
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No one from a respectable faith thinks of holy water as "magic water". Period. *NM*
13/06/2011 04:56:53 AM
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All I know, Is a Lutheran Pastor told me, b/c i was not baptised I was going to hell, and had *NM*
11/06/2011 03:44:38 PM
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I never thought of it in that way, that is why I like this site *NM*
12/06/2011 04:26:40 PM
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