Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
Joel Send a noteboard - 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM
With so much matter unaccounted for, how is it certain a more distant gravity source isn't pulling the superclusters (and everything else)? I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just curious how we can KNOW that's not the case.
The presence of huge amounts of mass at the edges of the universe, causing inner clusters to accelerate away from each other, is not consistent with cosmic inflation, which made the universe flat and homogeneous at large scales. Inflation is well supported by cosmic microwave background measurements.
OK then, thanks.
Yeah, but I'm a lot more comfortable with that. We know no theory perfectly explains all the evidence, so there's a known but undefined amount of inaccuracy in every theory. Reducing that inaccuracy through observation, hypothesis and experimentation is what I hope is occurring, up to and including completely abandoning any theory with as much or more evidence against it as for it. Maybe I am just giving into the sensationalism again, but it seems like dark energy is more than just a wrinkle of the cosmological constant. That's not necessarily a bad thing; if it becomes a complete revision justified by the evidence then I have no complaint with it--provided it IS justified by the evidence, not just a desire to replace an existing theory.
If you refer to the Wikipedia page on dark energy, the next-to-last sentence is "First results from the SNLS reveal that the average behavior (i.e., equation of state) of dark energy behaves like Einstein's cosmological constant to a precision of 10%." The paper which demonstrates that result is cited.
Ten percent seems to me a rather large variance. The difference between Mercurys predicted and actual orbit that provided experimental proof of Relativity was smaller than that. That's a big improvement over a hundred orders of magnitude worth of variance, but not airtight, and a variance that large to begin with doesn't inspire confidence. Even if that great a correction is valid on that basis though it (and the vague but exotic nature of dark energy in general) is more than just a trivial fine tuning, it's a fundamental revision. Again, if the best evidence warrants that, well and good, but if that's the case there's no reason not to call what it is and cite the evidence as justification.
The distinction was that we'd expect a unique fundamental particle to have unique properties, but positing multiple particles with most or all of the same properties would make the properties no longer unique. That's what I meant by comparing them to neutrons and protons: They were recognized as different particles due to different properties; had they possessed all or most of the same properties with slightly different masses they would not have been considered different particles (and, in the sense of both being baryons, no longer are) but variations of a single particle. The notion of multiple fundamental particles with only a few slight but critical variations reminds me of how we were tipped to the existence of quarks in the first place.
This entire paragraph is gibberish. Particles with all of the same properties but slightly different masses are recognized as different particles, as you could see by looking at the hadronic "particle zoo." The same combinations of quarks can exist at different levels of total angular momentum and isospin, and therefore different rest masses. Compare, for example, with the Delta particles, some of which have the same valence quark content as the proton and neutron but are ~30% more massive.
Basically, you've come up with some mental model of particles that isn't well grounded in the Standard Model or quantum field theory, and therefore makes meaningless distinctions. None of this is in any way a reasonable objection to dark matter being a new exotic particle.
How valid is the particle zoo as such though? Its prolific particle creation is what led to the theory and then discovery of quarks in the first place (which is why I started this line of analogy), and how different from a neutron or proton is a delta baryon that exists for 10^-24 seconds before becoming one of them anyway? I could see it for the one with the +2 charge, because it DOES have a different property, but otherwise it's a group of baryons made of the same components as protons and neutrons but slightly heavier because those components are arranged differently for a fraction of a second before rearranging to their more natural states as normal stable baryons. That seems more of a "meaningless distinction" than anything I've said.
I find your surplus of faith disturbing. Professional communities, the scientific among them, can and have made mistakes, sometimes big ones. I'm confident any such error will be caught eventually, but can't help remembering that "eventually" is the word Wikipedia uses to describe how other scientists ultimately vindicated Vera Rubins findings on gravitational rotation, which it also says were met with skepticism until then. Institutional errors happen, and thus no discipline is infallible collectively or individually. EVENTUALLY quarks were hypothesized (and also met a fair amount of skepticism) and eventually they were found, but prior to the former particle physics went through a period where list of new "fundamental" particles never stopped growing. Not centuries ago, but about fifty years ago. Certainty that "science marches on" and never needs to retrace its steps except briefly is, once again, less than reassuring since it's reminiscent of the same certainty that has led down many blind alleys.
Sometimes, we have to expend some effort ruling out incorrect theories. Sometimes, this takes a while, and yes, that can be due in part to personality conflicts and other psychological foibles. If you have any worthwhile suggestions for improving that process, feel free to share. What you were doing at the start of this thread, though? That ain't it.
I'm not so sure. I asserted my confidence in an explanation through familiar matter rather than exotic, and referenced as an example of why the multitudinous particles in the zoo regarded as fundamental until they grew to a number that made that contention absurd and led to the discovery of quarks. That the men who made that discovery are still alive indicates persistent errors remain quite possible; it also shows they'll ultimately be corrected, but is definitely a recent caution against overconfidence in current models. You've largely convinced me that normal dark matter isn't viable, and that does leave exotic dark matter as the best available explanation by default; it does NOT make it the CORRECT explanation by default, nor do two nebulae prove it so. You seem to agree in principle that it could be disproven and/or a better alternative found, and ultimately that's all I'm asking; I was fairly confident normal dark matter was sufficient, but don't mind being wrong. Scientific laymen need as much convincing as any other kind that the catechism isn't just smoke and mirrors though, or the Higgs bosons nickname may prove ironic.
OK, I'll wait and see. I still can't help thinking about the proton decay GUTs predict. Perfect Symmetry contained the statement that "we know in our bones" protons have a half-life>10^30 years because our bodies own radioactivity would kill us if they didn't. Neutrino detectors had recently established their half-life had to be>10^31 years because we hadn't seen any decay, so the GUT creators revised their theories to more complicated particles that only required a half-life of 10^32 years. Then bigger detectors ruled that out; more revision, more complexity, more observation. Recently crusing through Wikipedia I saw that the minimum estimate is up around 10^34 years and there's a real prospect we'll NEVER be able to build a detector large enough to reproducably observe proton decay, and still the revision and increased complexity continues. The possibility the theory might just be WRONG doesn't seem to have ever been on the table; there's too much fame to be had from achieving what Einstein attempted and failed.
But, OK, I know I'm out of my depth. I'll see what happens and hope that if any observer bias exists it's corrected sooner rather than later.
But, OK, I know I'm out of my depth. I'll see what happens and hope that if any observer bias exists it's corrected sooner rather than later.
...what? The vast majority of physicists have discarded the viability of traditional GUTs and don't consider proton decay worth a second thought. Yeah, there are still a few people trying to find it, but so what? The field is not one solid monolith, taking only one step in one direction at a time. I'm not sure why you have that impression, but you should revise it.
The key word being "traditional"; Wikipedia still claims GUTs to be an intermediate step to a ToE, which indicates more than a few physicists are still pursuing them. I get the impression of the field as a solid monolith because of phrases like "the Standard Model". In many ways it's a good thing, because theories usually aren't widely accepted without a significant amount of reproducable experimental observation (I say, "usually" because, again admitting I'm not well versed on the subject, speciation seems difficult to reproduce in a lab, even if I do happen to believe it's happened countless times). It does, however, lend itself to group think, and in areas (of which this is one) where reproducable experimental evidence will be hard to obtain even if the theory is valid, acceptance can get ahead of the evidence as people get impatient for the latter. Cruising through the Wikipedia articles on quarks again I noticed that long before the charm was actually FOUND the top and bottom quarks were theorized based on the theory that predicted it. If you're hard at work on a new model, knowing that someone else could announce it tomorrow, how long will you wait for the theory on which it depends to be proven before bulling ahead with yours? In the referenced case (which occurred about the time I was born, not in the days of Galileo), apparently not long.
If I overstated my skepticism, my apologies, but it's easier to deal with overstated skepticism than understated, because where the former is vulnerable to facts the latter selectively seeks favorable ones.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
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LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Exciting video about the universe
28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM
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I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect.
28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM
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We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter.
28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM
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I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM
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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM
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There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM
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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM
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The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM
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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM
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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM
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Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM
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Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately.
10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM
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Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately.
14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM
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Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter:
29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM
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This seems like another example of what confuses the issue.
30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM
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Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue.
30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM
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That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM
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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM
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Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99)
28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM
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Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry.
29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM
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None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter.
29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM
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I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM
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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM
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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM
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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM
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I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM
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Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM
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Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at
29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM
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Potentially either, or a combination of the two.
30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM
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It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly
30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM
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My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely.
02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM
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