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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
The cult surrounding the God of the Ancient Hebrews has never been static. It has always evolved and adapted, and that evolution and adaptation did not end with the closing of the Canon.

From worshiping the Creator and that Creator' God of Armies (El and YHWH) to worshipping one God. Child Sacrifice forbidden. The condemnation of slavery and the claiming of Imago Dei being a human thing, as opposed to being a King thing. From a wandering Tent, to a singular temple. Paul's claim that it was possible to be a Christian without also being a Jew. (A move with, from its own perspective, a similar lack of precedent as what we are talking about now.)

Our texts guide us, and lay down the pattern. But who knows what the next step will be? For me, the answer is made clear by one thing... seeing the work of the Holy Spirit so clearly carried out through some of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. If God is going to use them in ministry, who the hell am I to exclude them?

By that logic we should excuse Jim Bakker cheating on his wife with his secretary and Jimmy Swaggart patronizing New Orleans prostitutes because, after all, they fed and educated impoverished children. Why should one little ongoing sin that hurt no one bar them from Church leadership? The only difference is that when the truth came out Swaggart publicly admitted to and repented his sins (however insincerely) rather than claiming the Holy Spirit had suddenly approved what he wanted despite withholding that approval from millennia of OTHER Church leaders, and countless biblical prohibitions of his actions. Sure, Paul took a big step in expanding the gospel to Gentiles, was amid even larger steps that had already made what was formerly a Jewish sect into (wait for it) an entirely distinct religion. THAT'S definitely not without precedent in Christianity; the Unitarian Church did something similar in endorsing universalism, but ultimately admitted the fait accompli: They ceased to be a Christian church when they made integral Christian doctrine optional. They had every right to do so, of course, and it made them far more inviting to many people who'd never consider Christianity, but it still amounts to doctrine more concerned with pleasing man than God.

Change is not necessarily evolution; making something more popular does not necessarily make it more holy, nor does making it more convenient make it more godly. Christianity isn't about doing what's convenient or popular; that's the wide broad road to perdition. Peoples desires don't give us a free pass on that on, even an inborn desire; no Christian should need to be told that the natural man is at odds with the Spirit of God. Sacrificing the latter for the former isn't any kind of "reconciliation", it defeats the whole purpose of the gospel. A small minority publicly proclaiming they've put their will ahead of Gods for years and will continue is an argument against, not for, ordaining them Christian priests.

It's theoretically possible all the biblical prohibitions against homosexuality, all the opinions of Church Fathers at least as Spirit led as anyone today and millennia of Church practice and tradition was somehow out of step with Gods will and He simply waited until a few decades ago to say so. I think it decidedly unlikely and the evidence against that view far greater and more compelling than the scanty evidence for it; even were that not so I would argue that since the highest goal is pleasing God, not man, we should err on the side of caution. However, since an argument CAN be made I wouldn't expel anyone from a congregation over it; I could be wrong and I won't disqualify anyone from Christianity when that risk is present. Still, the goal is pleasing God, and that the Golden Rule is but the chief means of doing so is what separates Christianity from secular humanism, so while (significant) doubt remains on the matter I think it unwise and harmful to elevate people to the priesthood who disregard all of Church teaching and history on the grounds that the Holy Spirit has conveniently told them what they wanted to do all along isn't sinful after all.
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Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A. - 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM 1334 Views
*NM* - 11/05/2011 06:10:26 PM 283 Views
I am happy to see this. *NM* - 11/05/2011 07:22:59 PM 316 Views
Homosexuals must die! - 11/05/2011 08:25:25 PM 998 Views
I agree! This sort of behavior can NOT be excused!!! - 11/05/2011 10:38:16 PM 653 Views
Yay!!. - 11/05/2011 10:38:51 PM 826 Views
Glad to hear it. *NM* - 11/05/2011 10:46:39 PM 381 Views
Well done. *NM* - 11/05/2011 11:07:22 PM 323 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification? - 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM 834 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests. - 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM 822 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood? - 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM 770 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much. - 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM 712 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned - 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM 711 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route. - 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM 680 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible. - 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM 738 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means. - 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM 913 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy. - 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM 718 Views
Wow. - 20/05/2011 10:15:21 AM 745 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though). - 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM 791 Views
It's more a question of interpretational standards. - 12/05/2011 02:29:43 PM 682 Views
Agreed. - 14/05/2011 01:17:45 AM 767 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible. - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM 821 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all? - 12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM 701 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored. - 14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM 803 Views
They did so, via negativa. - 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM 861 Views
Your church has a constitution?! - 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM 722 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM 365 Views
Haha no way! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM 318 Views
We have a General Assembly and a Moderator. - 12/05/2011 04:18:34 PM 814 Views
I had no idea the US was based on that system. - 12/05/2011 06:22:58 PM 643 Views
It is pretty common practice - 12/05/2011 06:54:02 PM 683 Views
Oh I'm sure it is with newer churches. - 12/05/2011 10:49:11 PM 741 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible. - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM 906 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape. - 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM 737 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit. - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM 849 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis - 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM 789 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any. - 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM 760 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM 756 Views
Re: Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 07:02:35 PM 736 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part. - 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM 677 Views
Danny will correct me if I'm wrong, but... - 13/05/2011 09:55:14 PM 865 Views
Danny persistently refuses to say that - 13/05/2011 10:13:55 PM 791 Views
You're a fucking moron. *NM* - 15/05/2011 11:11:08 PM 349 Views
You make a very important but too often overlooked point. - 14/05/2011 01:54:40 AM 819 Views
??? the bible was harsher on homosexulaity than on rape - 12/05/2011 06:56:43 PM 713 Views
Read Judges. - 12/05/2011 07:17:29 PM 714 Views
Another example... - 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM 654 Views
That's what people said about churches opposing slavery. - 12/05/2011 04:06:26 PM 712 Views
I rest my case *NM* - 12/05/2011 04:48:32 PM 312 Views
That is a false dichotomy and we both know it. - 14/05/2011 02:07:19 AM 711 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct. - 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM 630 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats. - 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM 691 Views
We both know that isn't the case - 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM 798 Views
Whatever your issue is, get over it. - 13/05/2011 06:17:26 PM 674 Views
You'd be a lot more effective... - 13/05/2011 06:45:31 PM 773 Views
You haven't adequately expressed your theology - 13/05/2011 07:28:54 PM 770 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels - 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM 760 Views
Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 13/05/2011 07:14:01 PM 665 Views
Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM 1078 Views

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