The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
Jacob Send a noteboard - 13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
Your final paragraph is simplistic the point of naivete. Sexuality can be sinful. Pride can be sinful. Anger can be sinful. All can also be blessed gifts of God. Simplifying the universe so you can make black and white distinctions makes life easier, but that doesn't make them correct.
I find it odd that you sweep away probably the most central and difficult argument to overcome, Biblically, to the idea that practicing homosexuals can and should be ordained. When, in fact, it's that argument that most specifically HAS to be addressed when making that decision.
Yes, sin is sin. We are all equally sinful beings. Yes, there are some sins that carry greater social/civic stigma/repercussions that should prevent people from being ordained ministers. Homosexual sex is not one of those acts. Legally and socially this is not, or should not be, a factor for anything at all.
The issue then is one of sin, salvation, and grace. The Bible does proclaim homosexual sex to be a sin. I've read much on both sides of this argument. I've read the Bible, over and over, and I've read many different works focused on the translation of the original texts. Without any further revelations it seems pretty obvious to me that the Christian Bible considers homosexual sex a sin. It considers a lot of things a sin. Sin is why we can't be in a relationship with God.
Then comes in Salvation and grace. In the death of Christ, a sinner can be redeemed, have their sins forgiven, to be given grace. According to the Bible, that forgiveness is given with belief in Christ, and his sacrifice, and in asking for forgiveness for your sins, turning your life to a pursuit of Christ and God.
So we have forgiveness of our sins, and the grace of God to be considered holy through the sacrifice of Jesus.
Okay, so it is here where we have our issue. Sex is considered a sin in the Bible in almost all contexts except in Marriage, which is defined in both testaments, one being by Jesus. Homosexual sex is considered a sin.
The question is, can a person who is a 'practicing' (ugly term for a person just living their life) homosexual, and by thus admitting to making a sinful act a regular, expected, and normal part of their life, be a ordained minister? How is this different from a person who is prideful, lustful, who lies, etc.?
I don't think you can be so cavalier with your response here. The very essence of forgiveness and grace is the honest desire to have your sins forgiven, to at least strive to turn away from your sins, to live differently. That is the same for all sins. Now, don't get me wrong, I think that there are a great many people who embrace certain sins in their lives, and don't see them as such. For that very reason, there are a lot of people who probably shouldn't be ordained, or otherwise, official ministers.
From there, there are the somewhat related questions. Does the Bible mentioning only marriages between a Man and a Woman, really mean that a same sex union can not be blessed by God? It wasn't a cultural reality at the time of the Bible, so the argument is that it makes sense that nothing else is mentioned. Or, conversely, just because the Bible mentions sex in the context of marriage, does that mean that a married person can be a priest even when Paul seems to suggest that it is not an ideal spiritual arrangement? There is, and always has been, a lot of questions around married clergy. One thing that doesn't seem to have any questions about it is that the Bible does not address same sex marriage in any way. It certainly doesn't offer a context in which homosexual sex would be considered not sinful, either as an act itself or as an act outside of marriage.
These are really tough issues. I believe that same sex couples should be given every legal and social right that man and woman couples get. Same sex couple should be able to be married under the laws of nations and states. Still, according to the Bible, I don't believe that a practicing gay person should be an ordained and official minister.
A side question for you Danny, if you would permit me? Do you still believe, or lean toward, as you previously claimed, that a person does not necessarily need to believe in Jesus to find salvation? You talked about this at some length a few years ago, and I'm curious if you still hold to this. If so, do you believe, that people get salvation and forgiveness, whether they believe in Jesus or not, because of Jesus' sacrifice and death? Or, do you believe that Christ is immaterial to salvation and a person's life and good heart is what really matters? You never really explained what you thought about the nature of salvation if belief in Christ is not necessary, as the Bible, most prominently by Jesus himself, claims to be true.
I ask these things mostly to get a sense of where you stand on both the authority of the Bible and salvation through forgiveness as it is rather central to understanding your position on the original topic and the Bible's place in that discussion.
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
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What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
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Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
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Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
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Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
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That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
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Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
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I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
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I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
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As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
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Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
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There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
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Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
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Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
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They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
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Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
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Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
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My Church has a congress! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
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Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
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Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. *NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
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I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
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Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
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Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
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Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
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I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
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There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
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Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
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My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
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Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
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I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
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The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
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You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
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Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
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If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
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On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
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We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
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Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
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No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
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So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
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The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
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Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
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The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
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That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
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Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
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Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
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The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
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I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
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Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
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Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
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There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
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