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Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit. Tom Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
Let's take each lie sentence by sentence:

In the Old Testament, the objection was to the tradition of raping foreigners in order to establish dominance over them that was actually fairly widespread.

That is a blatant lie. Not only are there no reliable reports that this was practiced by the Hebrews, but the line in Leviticus 18:22 is clearly not a reference to rape. Instances of rape are set off by the verb laqah, which means "to seize". Consensual sex is identified by the verb shakav, which means "to sleep". The exact wording of Leviticus 18:22 is as follows: v'et-zakar lo tishkav mishkevei ishah to'evah hi, which translates literally "and do not sleep with a man as (one) sleeps with a woman this is an abomination".

Paul's words on "taking a man as if he were a woman" referred to the Greek tradition of wealthy men buying slaveboys to dominate.

Another lie. Not only does Paul not say that (you're misquoting Leviticus from the Old Testament), but he is far clearer in what he does actually say. Your conjecture that he is talking about "the Greek tradition of wealthy men buying slaveboys to dominate" (which was really a common tradition in the ancient world, and which was augmented by the institution of pederasty, which did not involve slaves, as well as equal-age homosexual acts, since most Romans and Greeks were bisexual) is completely unsupported both by background and by the text itself. Paul says:

?????? ?? ??? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????????, ??????? ?? ??????? ??? ??????????? ?????????????? ??? ??? ??????????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????????????.

And in this way the men, forsaking natural relations, in their desire burned in lust one for each other, men performed indecencies upon men and received upon themselves the penalty for this delusion of theirs.


The text is clear that it is men with other men, not men with boys. They burned in their lust for ONE ANOTHER. This is a RECIPROCAL verb used with every single mark of reciprocity possible. It says specifically ??????? ?? ???????, which literally translates as "men into men". The word used is that of a full-grown man, not a child.

Needless to say, rape remains firmly condemned.


I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this was the only truthful sentence you wrote, but actually, the sad part is that the Old Testament is very lenient on rape, as opposed to male homosexuals. The penalty for having sex with another man is death by stoning (Leviticus 20:13), whereas rape can lead to a variety of outcomes, one of which being forcing the rapist to marry his victim and pay money to her father (Deuteronomy 22:28). Rape can in some cases lead to death by stoning, but not in all cases. Homosexual sex in all cases leads to death by stoning.

There are no references to consensual homosexual sex between men in the Bible (unless you want to make an argument for David and Jonathan, a positive Biblical relationship) and no mentions of lesbian sex whatsoever.


This has just been proven to be a lie. As for lesbian sex, continue reading Paul's statement in Romans, chapter 1.

Even if you ignore all of that and make the extremely tenuous argument that homosexuality is a sin, so what? If we want to make the argument that sinners can't be pastors, we won't last long.


So what? You seem to have a very poor understanding of the nature of faith and salvation if that's your attitude. The forgiveness of sins by Christ is founded on the penitence of the sinner. Jesus said to the adulteress, "Go, and sin no more", not "Go, and keep doing what you've been doing". While every human is a sinner in Christian doctrine, there is a difference between sinning and asking for forgiveness, and trying not to sin again, and being comfortable with sin and professing it to not be a sin. That is pretty much the standard definition of an unrepentant sinner no matter what denomination you belong to. If the priest is a homosexual who tries to refrain from acting on his urges, then he's no different than the priest who struggles with any other sin. It's when he claims that what he's doing is okay that he has crossed a line, and a very clear one at that.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 12/05/2011 at 05:54:13 PM
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Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A. - 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM 1335 Views
*NM* - 11/05/2011 06:10:26 PM 284 Views
I am happy to see this. *NM* - 11/05/2011 07:22:59 PM 317 Views
Homosexuals must die! - 11/05/2011 08:25:25 PM 998 Views
I agree! This sort of behavior can NOT be excused!!! - 11/05/2011 10:38:16 PM 653 Views
Yay!!. - 11/05/2011 10:38:51 PM 828 Views
Glad to hear it. *NM* - 11/05/2011 10:46:39 PM 381 Views
Well done. *NM* - 11/05/2011 11:07:22 PM 323 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification? - 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM 835 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests. - 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM 823 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood? - 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM 771 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much. - 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM 713 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned - 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM 711 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route. - 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM 681 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible. - 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM 739 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means. - 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM 914 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy. - 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM 718 Views
Wow. - 20/05/2011 10:15:21 AM 746 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though). - 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM 791 Views
It's more a question of interpretational standards. - 12/05/2011 02:29:43 PM 683 Views
Agreed. - 14/05/2011 01:17:45 AM 767 Views
They did so, via negativa. - 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM 861 Views
Your church has a constitution?! - 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM 723 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM 365 Views
Haha no way! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM 319 Views
We have a General Assembly and a Moderator. - 12/05/2011 04:18:34 PM 815 Views
I had no idea the US was based on that system. - 12/05/2011 06:22:58 PM 644 Views
It is pretty common practice - 12/05/2011 06:54:02 PM 684 Views
Oh I'm sure it is with newer churches. - 12/05/2011 10:49:11 PM 742 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible. - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM 907 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape. - 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM 738 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit. - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM 850 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis - 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM 790 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any. - 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM 761 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM 757 Views
Re: Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 07:02:35 PM 736 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part. - 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM 678 Views
Danny will correct me if I'm wrong, but... - 13/05/2011 09:55:14 PM 866 Views
Danny persistently refuses to say that - 13/05/2011 10:13:55 PM 791 Views
You're a fucking moron. *NM* - 15/05/2011 11:11:08 PM 350 Views
You make a very important but too often overlooked point. - 14/05/2011 01:54:40 AM 819 Views
??? the bible was harsher on homosexulaity than on rape - 12/05/2011 06:56:43 PM 713 Views
Read Judges. - 12/05/2011 07:17:29 PM 715 Views
Another example... - 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM 655 Views
That's what people said about churches opposing slavery. - 12/05/2011 04:06:26 PM 712 Views
I rest my case *NM* - 12/05/2011 04:48:32 PM 313 Views
That is a false dichotomy and we both know it. - 14/05/2011 02:07:19 AM 712 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct. - 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM 631 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats. - 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM 692 Views
We both know that isn't the case - 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM 799 Views
Whatever your issue is, get over it. - 13/05/2011 06:17:26 PM 675 Views
You'd be a lot more effective... - 13/05/2011 06:45:31 PM 774 Views
You haven't adequately expressed your theology - 13/05/2011 07:28:54 PM 771 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels - 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM 761 Views
Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 13/05/2011 07:14:01 PM 665 Views
Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM 1079 Views

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