Couldn't resist. Long lurk, no see; how's tricks? Thoughts on the British referendum? How badly does the US need instant runoffs if Obama can't get an approval rating of 50% and the Republican House is lucky to get half that? Oh, and comments on my use of inexact polling in this thread are welcome if you want to avoid an outright threadjack.
What we need to institute is something condorcet complete like Borda. Borda's good.
Wikipedias example illustrates that: Fifty voters rank a right, center and left candidate. Thirty right voters rank them R-2, C-1, L-0. Twenty center left voters rank them C-2, L-1, R-0. The final tally is C-70, R-60, L-20. The center candidate wins despite a right majority, and despite the fact the right candidate would win a two candidate race against either of the others, so Borda isn't Condorcet complete either.
Further, tactical voting could (and, I suspect, often would) make a consensus second choice NO ONE chose first defeat a majority first choice. A simple example would be 50 people choosing 4 candidates. Thirty right voters rank them FR-4, CR-3, CL-2, FL-1. Twenty left voters vote tactically and rank them FL-4, CR-3, CL-2, FR-1. The final tally is FR-140, CR-150, CL-100, FL-110. The center right candidate wins despite a far right majority, and even though the far right candidate would win a two candidate election against any other, so once again, not Condorcet complete. If the minority doesn't vote tactically, the result is the same as an ideal FPtP system. Ironically, tactical FPtP voting means America already elects the least objectionable candidate in practice, so the only difference I see is that Borda is designed to produce PTtPs accidental result, and wouldn't really change much in the US.
In this list, monotonicity is the only thing I want that Borda has and Instant Runoff doesn't, but I prefer the IR guarantee of a majority and mutual majority winner Borda lacks. Without a mutual majority guarantee minorities voting the party to prevent the other side winning can reduce elections to moderate and far minority candidates (not that that ever happens in the US. ) I realize chances a system WILL violate a criterion if it CAN are debateable, but that could go around in circles all day so I'm not going there.
IRV bugs me inherently because it's possible for a candidate moving his stances in the direction of the majority of opinion to actually cause him to lose. See the link below.
In each one of those grids, consider each point to be a simulated "average opinion." If each person on the grid voted for the candidate which was closest to them on the grid in accordance with the candidates' positions (ranking, approval, etc) then the color of the grid at that point is who would end up winning. Now, yes, this assumes that every person has complete knowledge of all candidates and votes logically, which doesn't happen, but for the purpose of visualizing outcomes, it's useful.
Plurality and Hare (IRV) are both awful. Plurality squeezes out moderate candidates, while Hare is all over the place. Approval and Condorcet are basically identical in most cases, while Borda is very similar to both, but emphasizes the moderate candidates more.
I think it's just an interesting way of visually depicting who would win in each.
Put in those terms, I can see your point, but because I prefer the varies ranking systems to FPtP I'm (perhaps unduly) attached to later no harm, because without a guarantee people giving ANY vote to a less preferred candidate won't cause your most preferred one to lose it'll be hard to sell people on it and we'll be stuck with FPtP forever. If I could pick any one of the systems I've seen proposed I'd probably go with Ranked Pairs, but it seems too complex to get popular approval (a smart chimp could follow IR and a lot of people STILL have trouble with it. ) Perhaps worse, it also doesn't guarantee you giving a lesser vote to someone you like less won't cost your favorite candidate the election. I can handle weird results as long as there's SOME logic to them, and if I'm following the graphs it seems like even in the most bizarre looking IR simulations IR a logic can be found.
For example, in the last (and weirdest looking) case there's a yellow triangle pretty much dead center of the red victory region. Since red has a greater y value and x value, if public opinion shifts from right of the triangle to the left it moves toward both while maintaining reds greater vertical distance; past a point yellows vertical advantage outweighs reds horizontal one and makes it the winner until public opinion is nearly even with red horizontally and red is again the winner. Effects of a vertical opinion shift are more pronounced because it increases the relative size of reds greater vertical distance, so less horizontal shift is generally necessary to make yellow the winner. The exception is that if the vertical position was always close to both red and yellow a horizontal shift left is more significant than an upward one and a win for yellow becomes a win for red. In all cases once public opinion gets VERY close to both vertical positions OR reds horizontal position red wins. The effect is a region of voters horizontally closer to red but occasionaly more concerned about reds greater vertical distance from yellow (despite being fairly distant from both themselves).
It's significant, I think, that in that simulation yellow has the LOWEST y value of the four AND is the closest candidate to red over all. It's a case where a single issue with strong public opinion can yield a surprising outcome, because if voters generally approve reds platform but are very extreme on that one issue red may not be close enough to their views, and they'll choose the most extreme candidate who's otherwise most like red. Red can only win if public opinion is VERY close to him on all other issues. In effect, it's a case where being moderate on EVERYTHING gets red beaten by a yellow candidate who's moderate on everything except the one issue on which the public is also extreme.
Maybe I'm fitting the data to my curve here; I can't be entirely sure, but that's my take: Just because the graph looks funny doesn't mean it's not representative, because electorates often look funny, too. Regardless, it looks like my choice ultimate choice is between systems that can penalize a candidate for shifting his position toward the majority or those that can penalize a voter for ranking candidates. Neither of those is ideal, obviously, but the former is less objectionable to me than the latter, particularly since it will take major public approval to implement either, and the general public will always be more concerned about hurting themselves than hurting their candidates.
After all that, I'm still very attached to mutual majority guarantees as well, because I still believe America's a center left country (at least in global terms) that's nonetheless had mostly center right and right Presidents since the war. To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about mutual majority, in 2000 I would've been happy with either Bradley or Gore (the Dem primary candidates), Nader (the Green nominee) or McCain (the GOP primary loser), but after six years of George Bush as my Governor the prospect of his presidency horrified me, yet the reality exceeded my worst nightmares. In my book, the Condorcet loser won, when a mutual majority system would've guaranteed me Nader, Gore or Bradely, all of whom would have eminently satisfied me. Given a choice between Condorcet completion or a mutual majority and later no harm guarantee, I'll miss monotonicity, but not as much as I'd miss the other two.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Wishlist
09/05/2011 08:26:23 AM
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I thought we already had one
09/05/2011 11:45:34 AM
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That is essentially Goodreads. *NM*
09/05/2011 02:42:06 PM
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I specifically noted I do not want it to become a Librarything/Goodreads copy.
09/05/2011 09:16:27 PM
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Wotmania content (FAQ, Theory post, personality test, etc.) and Chat *NM*
09/05/2011 02:53:08 PM
- 859 Views
Also agree here, at least where intellectual property isn't an issue.
09/05/2011 06:41:27 PM
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The Books MB, for example, has had more posts than the WoTMB in the past while.
09/05/2011 08:20:04 PM
- 1360 Views
I think the BMB is the future, but am not convinced it's the present, or the road to the future.
09/05/2011 09:58:01 PM
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Or there is just a link between WoT fans and answering the quick poll.
09/05/2011 10:27:18 PM
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I did consider that possibility, yes.
10/05/2011 02:24:02 AM
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Re: I did consider that possibility, yes.
10/05/2011 11:11:37 AM
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Like I say, the data doesn't allow for certainty, but I've seen no data contrary to my premise.
11/05/2011 08:49:28 AM
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Re: Wotmania content (FAQ, Theory post, personality test, etc.) and Chat
22/07/2011 05:35:32 AM
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A new messageboard style
09/05/2011 06:49:10 PM
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I hate other bulletin board styles. Hate.
09/05/2011 06:55:31 PM
- 1595 Views
09/05/2011 07:14:56 PM
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Well. I half agree with that.
09/05/2011 08:35:41 PM
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Help thing?
09/05/2011 09:55:18 PM
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Yes. The Help link on every page which currently goes nowhere. *NM*
09/05/2011 10:21:09 PM
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phpBB has an "ignore" option
09/05/2011 10:50:39 PM
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The thing is its the fun awesome people who do the tangents
09/05/2011 10:58:42 PM
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1996 is over
09/05/2011 11:52:48 PM
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THe option to show posts with newest replies first allows for that
09/05/2011 11:57:57 PM
- 1372 Views
a few things
10/05/2011 12:05:50 AM
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I'm surprised to have gotten this strong of a reaction
10/05/2011 12:30:21 AM
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For what it's worth
10/05/2011 12:45:45 AM
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Re: For what it's worth
10/05/2011 08:29:08 AM
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It's possible
10/05/2011 11:45:26 AM
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Re: It's possible
10/05/2011 12:02:51 PM
- 1414 Views
No, I got it
10/05/2011 01:03:59 PM
- 1373 Views
Re: No, I got it
10/05/2011 01:14:01 PM
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Re: No, I got it
10/05/2011 04:42:57 PM
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Re: No, I got it
10/05/2011 04:52:06 PM
- 1376 Views
Yes
10/05/2011 05:10:07 PM
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There's a firefox extension "interclue" that allows you to preview webpages before clicking links
10/05/2011 05:18:05 PM
- 1299 Views
This site has what, 10% or so percent of wotmania's activity in its heyday?
10/05/2011 10:45:51 PM
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I used to spend quite a lot of time on other sites.
10/05/2011 12:14:09 PM
- 1400 Views
Which type of sites?
10/05/2011 01:06:32 PM
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*NM*
11/05/2011 06:36:55 AM
- 736 Views
I actually had no idea to whom this response was directed.
11/05/2011 07:10:32 PM
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I agree with everything Rebakah and F&R said. I loathe the bulletin board style. *NM*
09/05/2011 07:12:53 PM
- 785 Views
I think forcing either style on anyone tends to discourage membership from those who want the other.
09/05/2011 08:23:13 PM
- 1493 Views
This is a good alternative,
09/05/2011 08:39:07 PM
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Thanks; you can't please everyone, but this seems like the closest we'll get.
09/05/2011 10:25:00 PM
- 1753 Views
Nice assumption
09/05/2011 10:32:35 PM
- 1368 Views
If it became a habit it would be annoying, yeah, but is there reason to think it would?
10/05/2011 01:33:50 AM
- 1430 Views
Human nature
10/05/2011 11:21:05 AM
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Human nature is to learn from mistakes, and that's not significantly less likely under either system
11/05/2011 08:58:06 AM
- 1418 Views
If RAFO wants to attract new members....
09/05/2011 10:55:36 PM
- 1470 Views
You can guarantee a large amount of people will leave if that vile phpBB type board is introduced
09/05/2011 11:01:43 PM
- 1482 Views
I see it the opposite way
10/05/2011 12:04:42 AM
- 1530 Views
It shouldn't be an either/or, a choice between retaining wotmaniacs or welcoming new members.
10/05/2011 02:00:04 AM
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While I agree with everyone who hates BB boards...
16/05/2011 06:26:04 AM
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I like the slider from nested to pages, yeah, thanks.
16/05/2011 06:54:02 AM
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Oh, my
16/05/2011 07:10:17 AM
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They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
16/05/2011 07:49:04 AM
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Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
16/05/2011 07:58:55 AM
- 1383 Views
Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
16/05/2011 09:22:44 PM
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Re: They're dumping the blue jerseys for home games.
18/05/2011 09:21:13 AM
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I'd probably like it better if I weren't such an awful hitter.
18/05/2011 11:20:06 PM
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I adore our set up.
09/05/2011 11:05:34 PM
- 1441 Views
Explanation, please.
10/05/2011 05:50:20 PM
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I love that there are many examples of why this board style is a good thing in this thread.
10/05/2011 10:59:03 PM
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There are also many counterexamples; depends on your perspective.
11/05/2011 09:08:19 AM
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it's a bug, not a feature
11/05/2011 06:45:29 PM
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I may be misinterpreting, and maybe this is the catch 22 (you don't read my posts.)
11/05/2011 08:18:32 PM
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I believe the way of counting active visitors has changed, though.
11/05/2011 08:25:27 PM
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He did say something like that, yes; wotmania counted people active for AGES after the logout.
11/05/2011 10:01:56 PM
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No, it's very much a feature, and that's coming from someone who shares your preference and reasons.
11/05/2011 09:44:51 PM
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It's so much a feature to me, that I'd leave if it went to BB. Also, tangents.
12/05/2011 05:40:45 PM
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I agree, I hate this old MBstyle. Its time to leave the dark ages. *NM*
13/05/2011 03:01:50 PM
- 768 Views
Your brain is just addled by hormones.
13/05/2011 03:14:27 PM
- 1367 Views
Hva addled hjernen min?
13/05/2011 04:36:14 PM
- 1380 Views
Acknowledgement of me as your ruler *NM*
09/05/2011 07:12:31 PM
- 728 Views
"JESUS is our only ruler!"
10/05/2011 03:00:01 AM
- 1212 Views
IRV is terrible, and is the worst option other than FPTP
10/05/2011 06:07:27 PM
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But Borda isn't Condorcet complete either.
11/05/2011 08:45:05 AM
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Hm. Coulda sworn it was. My mistake.
11/05/2011 11:43:43 PM
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NP, happens.
12/05/2011 01:09:18 AM
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Smiley Reduction/Alteration?
09/05/2011 07:30:25 PM
- 1167 Views
Also with quotes and close brackets. <---- This is WEIRD.
09/05/2011 07:34:13 PM
- 1329 Views
That is quite possibly my biggest annoyance with the whole site.
09/05/2011 07:40:48 PM
- 1284 Views
Nothing really big, apart from what others have said, and less that's new.
09/05/2011 07:54:03 PM
- 1487 Views
How about a music MB?
09/05/2011 08:00:33 PM
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I think it wouldn't be used much.
09/05/2011 08:08:52 PM
- 1366 Views
Yeah a post on the Com MB every other week works just fine. *NM*
09/05/2011 08:16:49 PM
- 772 Views
Or turn the TV & Movie board into a pop culture board we'd just need to get rid of the rubbish admin
09/05/2011 09:13:41 PM
- 1475 Views
Stop being a brat!
09/05/2011 09:57:35 PM
- 1488 Views
But it is Jens!
09/05/2011 10:16:23 PM
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Re: I think it wouldn't be used much.
09/05/2011 08:36:05 PM
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collapsing of extended thread nests
09/05/2011 11:09:23 PM
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pfft. get a wider screen. problem solved. *NM*
10/05/2011 04:06:51 PM
- 764 Views
Nah, it would also be nice to not have to go past all of that to get to part of a post you actually
15/05/2011 04:37:48 PM
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Quick question, how many users are registered here? *NM*
10/05/2011 01:38:37 AM
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I think the search page User List gives a good estimate (~725 total, counts/MB inside).
10/05/2011 02:44:50 AM
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It doesn't
13/05/2011 10:29:32 AM
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That surprises me, but I'm glad to have a (much) more accurate number, thanks.
13/05/2011 04:16:14 PM
- 1413 Views
Now that I'm thinking of Quick Polls: Maybe require voters to login during the feedback phase?
10/05/2011 03:05:51 AM
- 1364 Views
Anyone else notice that everyone replying participates on the book, tv + movies and comm boards
10/05/2011 02:18:08 PM
- 1413 Views
It doesn't help that we make them feel like a blemish on the RAFO scene.
10/05/2011 04:45:33 PM
- 1392 Views
Yeah, I don't get why the WOTlers aren't interested in saying something anywhere else
11/05/2011 09:54:50 AM
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I think it's as simple as a lot of them just being WoT fans (which is not a crime. )
11/05/2011 06:20:08 PM
- 1447 Views
I can agree to that. Provided of course, being a dan brown fan is still punishable by a severe...
11/05/2011 06:30:08 PM
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You put me in a difficult position, caught between two important principles.
11/05/2011 08:22:33 PM
- 1490 Views
Hey, reply to the right post
11/05/2011 08:58:30 PM
- 1416 Views
I did, I just merged another one; I usually do, but can't with nesting.
11/05/2011 11:01:16 PM
- 1536 Views
You put me in a difficult position, caught between two important principles.
11/05/2011 08:52:04 PM
- 1333 Views
I've seen most people who've replied post on the WoTMB at least occasionally.
11/05/2011 11:26:44 PM
- 1409 Views
You are clearly wrong.
12/05/2011 04:58:34 PM
- 1181 Views
Its prime ended before the split? Bah, you old geezers always hassle us kids for livin' our life!
12/05/2011 07:32:02 PM
- 1391 Views
Report post, moderation powers to all boards, spoiler tags, NM bug, bug submitter's name displayed.
10/05/2011 05:59:58 PM
- 1198 Views
Re: your suggestions
10/05/2011 11:03:00 PM
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Re: your suggestions
11/05/2011 08:24:38 AM
- 1218 Views
It's just that...
11/05/2011 06:04:46 PM
- 1342 Views
hahaha that's understandable. Well, leave me off the upgraded powers list, then.
11/05/2011 07:46:01 PM
- 1423 Views
Whoa. You can change quote styles? News to me. *NM*
11/05/2011 10:02:10 PM
- 716 Views
It's all there, in the help section at the top of the board.
12/05/2011 04:50:44 PM
- 1292 Views
Shush, you. *NM*
13/05/2011 08:56:05 AM
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Regarding the forum style
10/05/2011 11:17:50 PM
- 1710 Views
I support any improvement that won't impair functionality for others.
11/05/2011 05:26:02 PM
- 1358 Views
Just an observation/question about post-clicking
11/05/2011 05:42:30 PM
- 1398 Views
It's a real pain in the ass when the site's running slow.
11/05/2011 07:14:20 PM
- 1262 Views
Or your internet is; I've spent about 4 hours now reading and responding to less than a dozen posts.
11/05/2011 07:31:17 PM
- 1384 Views
It's more than laziness, yes.
11/05/2011 07:53:52 PM
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Active Users: 51
11/05/2011 01:19:25 AM
- 1387 Views
Also
11/05/2011 04:36:17 AM
- 1425 Views
Who asked to be added to the Skype thing and was completely ignored?
12/05/2011 06:32:00 AM
- 1409 Views
I wonder if there is a way to make the Search function work...
11/05/2011 09:56:54 AM
- 1286 Views
There is an easy fix for that.
11/05/2011 06:09:10 PM
- 1387 Views
Links in posts - can they not take us to a new page but to a new tab/window, please?
12/05/2011 05:49:23 PM
- 1404 Views
It's not, but a simple right-click and select "Open in new tab" does the job in FF, at least.
12/05/2011 10:40:27 PM
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Clicking links with your scroll wheel opens them in a new tab. *NM*
12/05/2011 11:32:29 PM
- 762 Views
some kind of "reply all" feature?
13/05/2011 06:35:15 AM
- 1387 Views
Not sure about implementation, but I like this; I wouldn't want pages as much with this.
13/05/2011 04:21:27 PM
- 1423 Views
Two things: facebook and searching within a post
13/05/2011 03:07:37 PM
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I can add a comment for Facebook liking.
13/05/2011 06:48:16 PM
- 1620 Views
Maybe it's another IE vs. Firefox thing.
13/05/2011 08:52:53 PM
- 1478 Views
I use chrome
13/05/2011 09:47:06 PM
- 1299 Views
Works now, looks like; thanks to Bekah (or apologies to Ben if I missed it earlier).
21/05/2011 10:29:26 PM
- 1357 Views
Make me an Admin!
13/05/2011 04:17:59 PM
- 1416 Views
Of what, exactly? You have no discernible skills beside account corruption. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:27:51 PM
- 808 Views
I demand silence from the peanut gallery! *NM*
15/05/2011 02:25:52 AM
- 711 Views
Since I don't think anyone else has mentioned it here - HTML
15/05/2011 09:00:39 PM
- 1501 Views
The email alerts for NBs option is coming (I think).
15/05/2011 11:22:58 PM
- 1457 Views
I hope so. I hate going onto the forum and replying "check noteboard" so they get an alert *NM*
25/06/2011 04:39:43 PM
- 806 Views
WYSIWYG! *NM*
27/05/2011 02:25:49 PM
- 746 Views
is inherently evil. *NM*
27/05/2011 02:40:51 PM
- 659 Views
...and yet inherently accessible to the non-geek masses
30/05/2011 02:34:58 AM
- 1346 Views
As I said...
30/05/2011 08:55:32 AM
- 1366 Views
We could always just put a banner on the home page that says, "no non-geeks need apply".
26/06/2011 12:00:31 AM
- 1326 Views
A redesigned home page!
22/05/2011 04:26:27 AM
- 1379 Views
Unhh... Privacy statement?
19/07/2011 06:14:49 PM
- 1263 Views
"Rules" would be a better place, IMHO; we're told at least one of those links should soon work.
22/07/2011 04:08:54 PM
- 1299 Views
Thanks for the response / comment, Josh
23/07/2011 08:59:02 AM
- 1226 Views
I assume it just means people are too busy working on the site to answer immediately.
23/07/2011 02:06:48 PM
- 1264 Views
Admins should be able to move Posts into an already existing thread
20/07/2011 02:52:05 PM
- 1309 Views
since most of us are science fiction fans as well as fantasy fans...
22/07/2011 07:56:29 PM
- 1577 Views
Feel free to use the Science category on this (the Community) MB *NM*
23/07/2011 04:35:06 AM
- 713 Views